* From comments a few days ago…
=== I’ve got family in FL. The amount of other costs they have to endure- fees, regulations, or simply going through the private sector for services I get covered by the state- almost entirely offset whatever they save on taxes.===
Someone made the point the other day that people don’t want to live in Deerfield because of the taxes, which, no, that is literally exactly why they move to Deerfield. Sending your kids to a top college-prep high school for free because you pay high property taxes is a bargain compared to having to pay for a private college prep school. People move to Chicago’s North Shore because of the schools, which are funded by the high property taxes.
When I lived in the south, I was continually amazed how people would work so hard to dismantle local laws and services — there was basically no code enforcement where I lived — and then move into HOAs with outrageously high fees and send their kids to super-expensive private schools, because they didn’t want to live next to somebody with the car up on blocks in the yard and didn’t want to send their kids to underresourced schools, but somehow paying more to acquire those services privately was morally superior to just paying taxes?
This, of course, doesn’t apply to the impoverished areas of the south suburbs which have crushing property taxes, subpar schools and lousy services. That’s a whole other problem that absolutely must be addressed.
- Needs Deleted - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 3:48 pm:
“Former Sen. Tom Cullerton sentenced to year in prison”
The above blog post, and headlines of a similar nature don’t help things. People feel like their high taxes are funding a corrupt class of elected officials.
- Homebody - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 3:55 pm:
But if it is done through the government, there is a chance that the wrong people get to benefit from those taxes being paid. Can’t have that, now can we?
It all goes back to the counties that literally decided they would rather have no public schools at all, rather than have integrated public schools.
People would rather pay higher prices for the same (or worse) service, if the alternative is accidentally helping someone they don’t want to help.
- Ryan - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 3:58 pm:
The governor can’t lower property taxes. It’s disingenuous for them to even campaign on “cutting property taxes.” They’re local!
- Travel Guy - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 3:58 pm:
= People would rather pay higher prices for the same (or worse) service, if the alternative is accidentally helping someone they don’t want to help.=
And ironically, the folks doing this the most are part of the self-professed “Christian right.” If you’ve never seen the clip on “Republican Jesus,” do yourself a favor and give it a Google. These folks will do and say anything to justify their selfishness.
- Flying Elvis'-Utah Chapter - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 3:59 pm:
Homebody beat me to it.
It’s the old “as long as I can see where my taxes are going” argument.
- Jocko - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:07 pm:
==as long as I can see where my taxes are going==
This reminds me of those who “Vote ‘NO’ on the local school tax increase”…who howl with rage when their home value takes a hit
- Nashville Resident - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:09 pm:
This is the dumbest argument for high taxes I’ve read in a while.
We moved from the western suburbs of Illinois to Nashville and the amount of money we’re saving on taxes is ridiculous.
We could hire a private tutor for our kid and still have money left over.
And even if we chose to send our kid to the most expensive private academy in the area, we’d still come out on top with the savings in income, property taxes, etc.
Examples: Gas is $1+ less per gallon due to less taxes and fees. Our property taxes are 1/3 of what we paid in Illinois for a house that’s worth 4X more than our house in Illinois. And that’s with our property value increasing 50% in less than a year.
And the most important thing to note is none of this is by force. We decide how much we want to spend on education rather than being forced to overpay for an underperforming public school in Illinois.
- Adroit Opiner - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:10 pm:
Couldn’t agree more, Rich. If one wants to save a couple percentage points on their effective state and local tax rate by moving to Florida, they’re going to get p-12 public schools that spend 40% less per pupil (US Census 2019 Public Elementary-Secondary Education Finance Data). And it’s not like Florida has figured out some way to magically provide the same level of services for 40% less in revenue. Pay bargain rates and get marginal services.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:13 pm:
==rather than being forced==
You weren’t being forced to do anything. You obviously had choices because you moved.
The whole “being forced to pay taxes” argument is just as dumb.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:15 pm:
People always think the grass is greener somewhere else. They pick out one thing and lament about how something is cheaper somewhere else and give no regard to anything else in their argument. I’m all for people moving if they want to move. More power to them. I say if you think you can have a better life somewhere else then by all means go. Do that instead of constantly whining and moaning and complaining about things.
- Nashville Resident - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:15 pm:
By choice, huh?
Do the people Rich noted have the resources and ability to pack up and leave?
“This, of course, doesn’t apply to the impoverished areas of the south suburbs which have crushing property taxes, subpar schools and lousy services. That’s a whole other problem that absolutely must be addressed.”
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:19 pm:
Why do you even care? You moved. And yet here you are still bellyaching about it.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:19 pm:
- Nashville Resident -
US News and World Report, states ranked, education
Tennessee?
HIGHER EDUCATION: 29
PRE-K-12: 31
Illinois?
HIGHER EDUCATION: 32
PRE-K-12: 6
- Lincoln Lad - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:20 pm:
There are a lot of us paying high property taxes who don’t have children in the school system…
- Galvanized - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:21 pm:
Dem, if you don’t pay taxes guys with guns show up at your house, or the government puts a lien on your property, I’d call that force.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:22 pm:
===Why do you even care? You moved. And yet here you are still bellyaching about it.===
If you can’t move on after moving on, maybe other things are troubling to you?
Me? Once I move to South Carolina, Georgia, maybe even California, I’m likely not going to worry too much about where I’ve been.
- Just Sayin - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:24 pm:
==Someone made the point the other day that people don’t want to live in Deerfield because of the taxes, which, no, that is literally exactly why they move to Deerfield. Sending your kids to a top college-prep high school for free because you pay high property taxes is a bargain compared to having to pay for a private college prep school. People move to Chicago’s North Shore because of the schools, which are funded by the high property taxes.==
Also can explain why some families choose to leave Springfield and move to the likes of Chatham, Rochester, etc. instead of sending their kids to 186 schools or even to SHG.
- Arsenal - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:24 pm:
==This is the dumbest argument for high taxes I’ve read in a while. ==
Is this the only such argument you’ve seen in a while? Because while I’m glad that your personal prosperity has grown with your move to Nashville, your personal experiences don’t disprove the experiences of anyone else, or of the idea that people will accept higher taxes if they get better services for it.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:25 pm:
===or of the idea that people will accept higher taxes if they get better services for it.===
The New Trier schools immediately come to mind
- ;) - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:29 pm:
Oh thank heavens, OW is moving. /Jk.
- Sangamo Girl - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:30 pm:
==who don’t have children in the school system==
Sigh. But you benefit from having a well-educated populace every day. They build your roads, provide your healthcare, and operate GPS-controlled farm equipment to grow your food.
And people are willing to pay more for your house if it located in a desirable school district.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:30 pm:
=== Oh thank heavens, OW is moving. /Jk.===
Not for a while… at least I don’t think as of yet.
It’s ok. I’d probably applaud it too.
- low level - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:45 pm:
Anyplace Ive lived with low taxes also was very very boring…
“This is the dumbest argument I’ve heard for high taxes” I thought of it more as having quality services like clean water and such.
- vern - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:47 pm:
Nashville Resident is a great example of something I’ve talked about in the past. Here we’ve got an anti-tax voter with enough interest in Illinois politics to read CapFax, and the Illinois Republican Party’s message to that voter for the last 10 years has been “move out so you can’t vote for us anymore.” Well congratulations, it worked, and he votes for Bill Lee for Governor now. Every voter who tried to make “Illinois Exodus” a reality is one less vote against Pritzker.
Also, Rich, the south suburbs don’t have a monopoly on that problem. People in Deerfield are fine are fine, but the folks in Zion, North Chicago, and the Round Lakes don’t have the services or schools most people think about when they hear “north suburbs.”
- Nuke The Whales - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:48 pm:
==This is the dumbest argument for high taxes I’ve read in a while. We moved from the western suburbs of Illinois to Nashville and the amount of money we’re saving on taxes is ridiculous.==
I’m a Tennessee resident who has completely left Illinois behind, but also read this niche Illinois politics blog and comment on this and only this article. Tell me you aren’t an actual Tennessee resident without telling me you aren’t an actual Tennessee resident.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:57 pm:
==if you don’t pay taxes guys with guns show up at your house, or the government puts a lien on your property, I’d call that force.==
Shouldn’t you be at a militia meeting or something?
- Larry Bowa Jr. - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 4:58 pm:
“There are a lot of us paying high property taxes who don’t have children in the school system…”
If you think this is an argument as to why you shouldn’t pay property taxes you’re going to need to flesh it out. Because it looks to me like you’re complaining about living in civilization.
- Nashville Resident - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:12 pm:
@Vern I wasn’t a Republican voter so they didn’t lose any votes.
I also moved because of quality of life, not just taxes. It’s amazing how much happier people are when they’re not paying two mortgages (one to the state and one to the lender), not paying an extra $1 at the pump, hit with red light and speed cameras, on and on. The friction Illinois government and the corruption that comes with it creates on people’s lives is really evident once you move.
And to the folks upset that a former resident is sharing facts in the comments, I was sent this link by a friend still living in Illinois. They thought I’d get amusement from the comments and they were right.
Y’all have Stockholm Syndrome and it’s sad.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:16 pm:
===they’re not paying two mortgages (one to the state and one to the lender)===
Who pays a mortgage to the state?
When did the state collect property taxes?
That’s an odd thing to type.
- Arsenal - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:22 pm:
==Y’all have Stockholm Syndrome and it’s sad. ==
I’m sorry that everyone here didn’t immediately agree with your completely unverifiable point. I’ll start a Go Fund Me to support you in this trying time.
- Arsenal - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:25 pm:
==I was sent this link by a friend still living in Illinois.==
And, as one typically does, you decided to argue with the unnamed strangers in the comment section.
Completely not sad behavior.
==They thought I’d get amusement from the comments and they were right. ==
Were they? Because, my brother in christ, you don’t seem amused. You don’t seem to be having any fun at all.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:32 pm:
- Arsenal -
Restaurant quality.
The in-law uncle says he’s “having fun” while turning red and raising his voice to how “he knows”
You pay for quality, education included.
- Fivegreenleaves - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:40 pm:
Illinois has a reputation for high property taxes because of the Chicagoland area. Outside of the northeast corner, property taxes are more in line with the rest of the country. A few years ago, I discovered my property taxes were on par with Omaha, NE. I pay around $3,000.00/yr. If I were in Cook County, I’m sure I would pay well over $10,000. For those dogging Illinois, there is a part of it outside of Cook county where the cost is much more tolerable.
- Arsenal - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:44 pm:
I also like the admission that you apparently gripe so much about the taxes in a state you don’t live in that your friends send you posts from niche political blogs about it. You must be fun at parties.
- MisterJayEm - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:47 pm:
“I also moved because of quality of life”
Now ask your neighbors if their quality of life improved when you moved in.
– MrJM
- MyTwoCents - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 5:49 pm:
You could also draw parallels between this and healthcare in the US. One could easily make the argument that Medicare for All would be a cheaper option that paying taxes for Medicare/Medicaid, paying for health insurance, employers paying for health insurance and workers comp, copays, out of pocket costs, etc. Yet people will argue for paying for healthcare because socialism? People putting ideology over rational thought is nothing new.
Nobody likes paying high taxes, but like everything in life you get what you pay for. But unfortunately the Right has done an excellent job over the decades of convincing people to not think about the greater public good that comes from a quality public education system, maybe because they succeed when people are ignorant and don’t have critical thinking skills.
- Reality Check - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 6:00 pm:
Lol way to slander the entire south because they don’t have the same schools as north shore of Illinois.
The problem is for the people who don’t have their kids in the schools. You either stick around and hold the bag or leave. Illinois’ property tax system has created suitcase communities.
- Just Sayin - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 6:10 pm:
==The problem is for the people who don’t have their kids in the schools. You either stick around and hold the bag or leave. Illinois’ property tax system has created suitcase communities.==
Or people (me included) that have decided to make “Rent, Not Buy” a lifestyle and forego owning a home or any real estate because of the property taxes. Even though it will go to the renters eventually in higher rents and fees.
- TheInvisibleMan - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 6:12 pm:
My friends out west in Big Bear always had what I thought was a perfect response when people asked them how they liked where they lived.
They always said it was terrible, and nobody should ever come there.
They liked where they lived, and didn’t want more people coming there.
Similarly, I didn’t have to do any work at all to convince the people I didn’t want to live around in the first place, to move themselves to another state.
Illinois is terrible. Don’t come here.
- Then there’s this - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 6:58 pm:
From World Population Review Most Violent Cities in America , 2022, incidents of violent crime per 100,000 people Nashville: 1138. Chicago 1099. This is 2020: https://247wallst.com/city/nashville-tn-is-among-the-most-dangerous-us-metro-areas/
You get what you pay for.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 6:58 pm:
===way to slander the entire south===
Another victim heard from.
- James - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 7:20 pm:
=impoverished areas of the south suburbs which have crushing property taxes, subpar schools and lousy services. That’s a whole other problem that absolutely must be addressed.=
Small villages and school districts could choose to annex to other adjacent villages, combining school districts, police, park and other services, ultimately eliminating many villages and districts that have the same duties which they all now do for smaller populations at greater costs per person served. It requires planning, cooperation, and many political positions being eliminated, so it’s hard to see it happening.
To start, it would take a couple strong local leaders, who believe in and are willing to publicly sell this solution, to initiate larger planning conferences. It would come down to voluntary participation by local governments, or divisive amendments to state legislation.
- Just Sayin - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 7:43 pm:
==Small villages and school districts could choose to annex to other adjacent villages==
Southern View, Leland Grove, Jerome, and Grandview: Care to listen to this?
- DuPage - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 7:58 pm:
@- Ryan - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 3:58 pm:
===The governor can’t lower property taxes. It’s disingenuous for them to even campaign on “cutting property taxes.” They’re local===
The state can increase the local tax credit on the state income tax.
- Boris - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 8:14 pm:
You can find really low property taxes in rural Illinois. You just got to look for school districts that are on the financial & Academic Watch lists.
I have done it. You just better move before your kids hit the school system. 2.5x my taxes though.
- JS Mill - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 8:34 pm:
=To start, it would take a couple strong local leaders, who believe in and are willing to publicly sell this solution,=
Well, I assume that you have done this successfully, please share your sure fire success system with the class.
I have been through school consolidation, it is a nightmare process. Twoo small districts of just over 500 students each. Budgets were $5.5 and $6.5 million each. Because the the dynamics and rules the new district budget was $12.75 million. Transportation, personnel, and facilities costs were the driver, not superintendents, of the increases. And this was a successful consolidation.
In rural communities it is an incredibly emotional process. The old saying that the hardest thing to kill is a school mascot is totally true. I don’t work in the district anymore, but more than a decade later hard feelings still persist.
Anyone that flippantly commands school consolidation (don’t even think about annexation) knows not of what they speak.
And property taxes are “cheaper” in rural Illinois because property values are lower. The tax rates are much higher than Cook County.
People really need to educate themselves.
- JoanP - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 8:50 pm:
= The problem is for the people who don’t have their kids in the schools. =
Not a problem for me. I don’t have kids. But good schools mean that the value of my home is higher than it would be otherwise. And good schools mean a better educated population.
Worth paying for.
- Ares - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 9:40 pm:
It’s amazing how people complained about parking meter costs in Chicago when the city owned the money from the meters, and now they pay a much higher rate to the foreign investors who control the meters cash flow, with few complaints
- charles in charge - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 10:40 pm:
==It’s amazing how people complained about parking meter costs in Chicago when the city owned the money from the meters, and now they pay a much higher rate to the foreign investors who control the meters cash flow, with few complaints==
“Few complaints”? What on Earth are you even talking about?
- Yooper in Diaspora - Tuesday, Jun 21, 22 @ 11:05 pm:
@Nashville Resident: As a former Nashville resident, I was struck by the lack of leash laws and the intentional decision not to put in sidewalks in newer developments. I had to map my walking route to Vandy to avoid the streets in which dogs which run at you from a block away. Loved the singer-songwriter scene in Nashville, and there were affinities with my “Yooper” upbringing. But I was aware of the rural poverty that is so prominent once you leave Nashville–that little mecca where Yankees can sort of mingle with the locals.
- Suburban Mom - Wednesday, Jun 22, 22 @ 7:12 am:
Wow, I’ve been quoted on Cap Fax, I’ll never hit this high point again.
===And the most important thing to note is none of this is by force. We decide how much we want to spend on education rather than being forced to overpay for an underperforming public school in Illinois. ===
The conversation that triggered my comment was specifically about how Cat executives moving out of Deerfield would be so terrible for Deerfield and raise everybody’s taxes. Which, no. Housing supply is so tight on the North Shore houses have been selling the week they go up, often with bidding wars. (A lot of them have been selling pre-list.) And if you think Deerfield has underperforming public schools, well, I don’t know what to tell you.
There are definitely people who lived in New Trier/Glenbrook/Township 113 schools and moved when their kids finished high school, often up towards Vernon Hills/Round Lake/Libertyville. But a lot of people stay in those communities after their kids are done with school because they own their house, the property values are good and rising, the services are good, they know their neighbors. My parents golf sometimes, and last time they were at the park district golf course, the kid checking them in was the son of one of MY high school classmates and knew who they were. I dropped by the library to return some books for my mom last time I was there, and the librarian remembered me from when I was a little girl and asked if I still liked books about dragons as much as I had back then. (Yes, the answer is yes.) They’re pretty pleasant places to live … if you can afford it. But for people who can afford it, a lot of them choose to keep paying for it, even after they’re not “using” the schools anymore.
- Skeptic - Wednesday, Jun 22, 22 @ 7:37 am:
I live downstate and my taxes are much lower than Cook. But you know what I don’t get? Professional fire protection. EMT response under 20 minutes. Solid, paved roads. Trash collection. Recycling. Sewers. Sidewalks. Parks. Animal control. Mass transit. And the list goes on.
This isn’t a complaint. I’m just pointing out to the “My taxes are too high” crowd that you’re getting something in return.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 22, 22 @ 8:28 am:
==But a lot of people stay in those communities after their kids are done with school because they own their house, the property values are good and rising, the services are good, they know their neighbors.==
Additionally: in the post that sparked this conversation last week, someone who was pining to leave Illinois also conceded that he couldn’t because his career was at a point that he couldn’t move. We don’t think about the fact that few of these low-tax utopias have very many stable, well-paying jobs that you can laterally slot right into. Illinois has chosen- albeit unconsciously sometimes- to protect and empower workers more than a lot of other states do. If you think we shouldn’t, either to attract more corporations or to lower taxes (not sure I see the connection on the last one, but make your case, I guess), then I’d be interested in this discussion, but let’s be honest that that’s the trade off.
Because that’s what this whole discussion is about, trade offs. You want lower taxes, something else will have to give.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Wednesday, Jun 22, 22 @ 8:33 am:
Democrats generally believe that we’re all in this together, Republicans generally believe it’s “Every man for himself.”
In the long run, “Look at everything you get for your taxes” is a framing that benefits Republicans and is bad for Democrats. Even though government is a bargain compared to having to purchase all of those services on your own, as soon as you put voters in the mindset of asking “What’s in it for me?” Instead of “What’s in it for us?” you are framing the argument in a way that hurts in the long run. People will always convince themselves that they are better decision makers than government, even while they stand in line to buy their lottery tickets.
Republicans ask “Are you better off than you were four years ago?” and Democrats should counter with “Is Illinois better off than it was four years ago?”