* David Bonagura Jr., author of the book “Steadfast in Faith”, was invited to appear on WTTW’s news program to talk about Rep. Kelly Cassidy’s bill to allow people to have their dead bodies composted under state regulations…
Bonagura: Cremation is allowed, but not preferred in the Catholic tradition precisely because of the value we place on the body as a religious tradition. We think the body has been ennobled in such a great way through the incarnation that Jesus Christ became God and gave the body an incredible dignity, He divinised it. So even in cremation, we allow that, the church requires that the ashes and bones be kept together and not separated. To separate is really to denigrate the nature of the person.
One of the great tragic elements of September 11 was that so many of those bodies were not able to be recovered, and those people were lost into oblivion, just like people who are composted are. There’s no way to bring closure or peace.
Rep. Cassidy: I’m sorry. You’re comparing this to a terrorist attack? Please.
Bonagura: It’s what happened to the bodies of those poor people.
Rep. Cassidy: And let’s stay with the facts, man. C’mon.
Bonagura: Those were bodies that were lost to all eternity, just like…
Rep. Cassidy: And that has nothing to do with a person making a conscious choice to use a low-impact process to dispose of their remains in a way that is consistent with their belief system. I respect your belief system. I’m not asking Catholics to be cremated, or to be composted. I have no business telling a Catholic what to do with their body post-death. Just as the Catholic Church doesn’t have any business telling an environmentalist that they have to use an environmentally damaging process to handle their remains.
Bonagura: We make laws that reflect the values of our culture. And to allow human composting, to allow our bodies to be thrown into oblivion…
Rep. Cassidy: This is not a Catholic country. [Crosstalk]
Bonagura: If we can defend the body in death, we can do it in life as well.
Please pardon all transcription errors. More on the panel discussion (and there was quite a bit more) is here.
- education first - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 10:59 am:
Go Kelly Cassidy. What I do with my body is no one else’s business, in life and in death. Sheesh.
- Demoralized - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:01 am:
That has to be one of the absolute dumbest arguments to make with regard to that issue. Those people didn’t ask for that to be done to their bodies. They were killed in a terrorist attack. Human composting is chosen by the individual. Why is it that politicians continually want to be involved in the personal decisions such as these. It is absolutely, positively none of their business. I’ve about had it with these jokers.
- Pundent - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:01 am:
=We make laws that reflect the values of our culture.=
What Bonagura is arguing is “our culture is the only one that matters.” Pretty much sums up the conservative movement at this point in time. Good for Cassidy to call him out on it.
- Nuke The Whales - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:06 am:
The Catholic Church previously did not allow cremation. Then, after Vatican II, they not only dropped their opposition, but allowed their priests to officiate such ceremonies. So how long before they change their mind on that as long as the compost is provided to a garden in a Catholic cemetery? (for just a nominal fee from the deceased I’m sure)
- vern - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:07 am:
Unless the bill *requires* the Church to do something contrary to its beliefs, there’s no reason to consider their input. They want the government to enforce their belief about the divine nature of the body, even against those who are not Catholics. That’s an outrageous demand.
- DuPage Saint - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:08 am:
Demoralized is absolutely right. I am sure there needs to be some regulation but keep out of my life and now my death.
- H-W - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:09 am:
Cassidy should have pushed Bonagura on the concept of being “lost into oblivion” and “lost to eternity.” That would have gotten to the heart of the matter.
Deflecting toward an argument about everyone has their own beliefs, and no one has the right to impose their beliefs on others, as a poor strategy for Cassidy.
I hear that sort of argument a lot - I have my beliefs and you have to accept that. It is at the heart of both Libertarianism, and Nihilism. Both approaches suggest the absence of a moral community. Both are antisocial arguments that race to the bottom of humanity, and both preclude common ground.
Cassidy should have focused “lost to all eternity” and “thrown into oblivion.” That would have been a fruitful approach.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:13 am:
===Both are antisocial arguments that race to the bottom of humanity===
Ridiculous. You’re constitutionally entitled to your own beliefs in this country. Don’t like it, change the Constitution. Otherwise, butt out.
- Techie - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:14 am:
The most absurd objection to this bill. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything - it would merely allow people more choices, aka more freedom.
I thought right-wingers liked freedom? Though these days that seems less and less true.
- Henry Francis - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:15 am:
So silly. It’s like if some Jewish zealot tried to outlaw tattoo parlors.
- Demoralized - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:16 am:
==I have my beliefs and you have to accept that==
I accept it. But what I don’t accept is that you get to use those beliefs to tell me what I should do in this situation. It’s none of your business. None.
- cermak_rd - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:16 am:
H-W I disagree. The argument, I have my beliefs, you have yours and since they aren’t overlapping here, we can both thrive, is a good argument. No one is stopping Bonagura from having his blood drained, his body pumped full of perservatives, a glorious high Latin funeral mass (OK the Cardinal might put the kabosh on that) said, etc. And I fail to see how Cassidy choosing to be disposed of differently is affecting any of that.
- MisterJayEm - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:22 am:
“I hear that sort of argument a lot - I have my beliefs and you have to accept that. It is at the heart of both Libertarianism, and Nihilism. Both approaches suggest the absence of a moral community. Both are antisocial arguments that race to the bottom of humanity, and both preclude common ground.”
You might be surprised at how many people can find common ground under the banner of “Mind Your Own Business.”
– MrJM
- H-W - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:22 am:
@Rich
I never said you cannot believe what you want. I believe Libertarianism and Nihilism are antisocial belief systems.
- Streator Curmudgeon - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:22 am:
“Those were bodies that were lost to all eternity, just like…”
This is a specious argument at best. For centuries people were buried in a blanket or just their clothes. Human composting was inevitable.
Christian theology clearly teaches resurrection of the body. To assume a composted body cannot be resurrected is an insult to an omnipotent God.
- Hannibal Lecter - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:25 am:
=== Rep. Kelly Cassidy’s bill to allow people to have their dead bodies composted under state regulations ===
To quote Snoop Dog and Willie Nelson “Roll me up and smoke me when I die”.
- Appears - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:28 am:
One of the tragic moments of 9/11 was that a lot of people were murdered
- vern - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:30 am:
===I believe Libertarianism and Nihilism are antisocial belief systems===
Neither party in this debate is a libertarian or a nihilist, so I’m not sure how relevant that is. More to the point, do you believe the 1st Amendment is an anti-social law? If you think that the US should become a Catholic nation (or “moral community”) and make laws based on Catholic doctrine, then say that. That’s what the Church is proposing here.
- Sir Reel - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:33 am:
Ah yes, “Catholic tra⁷dition.” Catholic priests and kids, Catholic schools and indigenous children, etc. Great “traditions.” No thanks.
- Betty Draper’s cigarette - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:35 am:
=== and those people were lost into oblivion, just like people who are composted are. There’s no way to bring closure or peace.===
Lost how? By decomposing? You know the earth’s bacteria and worms consume the body and return it to the earth where life(plants and animals) can grow again. Pretty cool, if you ask me.
- Betty Draper’s cigarette - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:38 am:
Sir Reel speaking of traditions check out the movie The Magdalene Sisters.
- Pundent - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:39 am:
=Both are antisocial arguments that race to the bottom of humanity, and both preclude common ground.=
No. Bonagura’s faith seems quite fragile. So fragile that he believes he could easily be tempted by such a law even though his faith requires otherwise. And Bonagura believes that if he can be so easily tempted so can you. And he just can’t allow that temptation to exist.
- Socially DIstant watcher - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:39 am:
There’s a very bright line between “I wouldn’t choose to do that” and “no one should be allowed to choose to do that.”
- MisterJayEm - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:41 am:
“Cassidy should have pushed Bonagura on the concept of being ‘lost into oblivion’ and ‘lost to eternity.’ That would have gotten to the heart of the matter.”
I believe that the “heart of the matter” is the question of whether adult human beings should be able to have an addition, highly-regulated, option for what happens to their corpses after their deaths.
Sincere question: What do you think is the “heart of the matter”?
– MrJM
- Just Me 2 - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:47 am:
I’ve really never understood why the Catholic Church thinks it has the right to tell me (a non-Catholic) how to live, and now apparently how to be dead. Can someone explain that to me please?
- Dannie - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:49 am:
Bonagura is ignorant of the Catholic tradition and teachings. The Catholic church does not require corpses/skeletons to be kept together. There are many crypts in Catholic churches in Europe Where the skeletons are separated: skulls stacked in one location; femurs in another, and so on. The Hapsburg royalty, one time emperors of the Holy Roman Empire, divide their corpses among several burial crypts in churchs in Vienna. To claim that the victims of 9/11 whose corpses were not recovered are “lost to all eternity” is a blasphemy.
- Big Dipper - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:51 am:
Until the 1980s those who committed suicide could not receive Catholic funerals or be buried in Catholic cemeteries. So these folks are always way behind the times.
- cermak_rd - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:53 am:
Actually lost to all eternity is interesting, too. So his belief is that the victims of 9/11, any sailors or airmen who have ever been lost without recovery, anyone buried in the common manner prior to c. 1900 are all lost to eternity. Take a look at an old cemetery, if it has not been carefully landscaped, it’s uneven terrain. The ground sinks in once the wooden coffin decays, once that happens any remaining remains will be short lived. I would guess mausoleums keep the body in better condition.
This means considering the entire history of humanity, most of humanity has been lost to eternity.
- MisterJayEm - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:54 am:
“Can someone explain that to me please?”
It is former global empire doomed to pine for “the good old days”; see also: the United Kingdom.
– MrJM
- Excitable Boy - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:55 am:
Wait, is the official stance of the catholic church that none of the victims of 9/11 went to heaven? I feel like I should have heard about this sooner.
- Big Dipper - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:56 am:
Under that logic wouldn’t organ donation at death be wrong too because it desecrates the body?
- H-W - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:57 am:
@MrJM
In the context of the debate between Cassidy and Bonagura, Bonagura is consistently making an argument that cremation is less than ideal, and composting is unacceptable. Bonagura bases his argument on faith alone, that only intact and complete bodies can live in the “afterlife.” Based on that belief, he opposes the creation of a low to allow people to have their bodies composted, regardless of their beliefs.
If I were Cassidy, and I wanted to advocate for composting, I would have taken Bonadura’s first assumptions to task. His assumption is premised on the existence of Heaven, and the existence of oblivion (whatever he means by that).
He uses his assumption to argue that we should not create a law that would allow people to choose composting, because those same people would not (in his mind) make it to Heaven. His thesis assumes everyone should want to go to Heaven, and if they do not, they must be compelled to act is if they want to go to Heaven.
And in the absence of proof of Heaven, his belief as to what is good for all is antisocial. He would compel people against their wishes, in order to satisfy his own beliefs about Heaven, and his role as God’s Servant.
I think his religious ethos is at the Heart of the Matter, and compelling religious beliefs upon communities regardless of their consent is antisocial.
- Excitable Boy - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:59 am:
- Deflecting toward an argument about everyone has their own beliefs, and no one has the right to impose their beliefs on others, as a poor strategy -
It’s not a strategy, it’s reality.
- Bigtwich - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 11:59 am:
So much for dust to dust.
- FormerParatrooper - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:00 pm:
I don’t understand why someone couldn’t decide to be compost under any of the religious traditions. If we believe we were created from dust and our bodies will return to dust, we are compost already.
I vote for human compost.
- Suburban Mom - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:00 pm:
=== Cremation is allowed, but not preferred in the Catholic tradition precisely because of the value we place on the body as a religious tradition. We think the body has been ennobled in such a great way through the incarnation that Jesus Christ became God and gave the body an incredible dignity, He divinised it===
This is not even true. It wasn’t allowed because of the belief in the bodily resurrection. (In the Nicene Creed, when you say “I believe in the … resurrection of the body,” that’s what you’re saying.)
===”lost to all eternity” and “thrown into oblivion.”===
I think this is where he’s being more honest about what the Catholic tradition used to be — I can’t quite tell if this guy believes it or if he’s just parroting phrases he picked up from reading traditionalist Catholic theologians — but this literally means that because the body was cremated (or blown to bits in 9/11), the person’s immortal soul cannot be resurrected upon the second coming of Jesus, so they can’t “go” to heaven.
I do sort-of wish Cassidy had pushed on whether this guy actually thinks and is willing to say that people who died in 9/11 whose bodily remains weren’t recovered cannot be resurrected or go to heaven. Because that’s what he’s saying, and that’s why he’s objecting to the composting. Either you need a body to be resurrected (and in that case many 9/11 victims cannot be) or you don’t, in which case who cares if you’re composting or cremating?
- TheInvisibleMan - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:03 pm:
How many other churches exist today only because they had to split off from the absurdities of the Catholic Church? Lutheran, Protestant, CoE, Episcopal, and so on.
We’re in the middle of another of those rotations right now. Over hundreds of years, the catholic church has still not learned the lesson. However, I don’t think another new church is the outcome this time. No church is the option this time around. As unpleasant as it is living through their decline, the end of their road is in sight and that’s what brings me hope for the future.
- Anyone Remember - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:04 pm:
Point to ponder. The forces behind Vatican II had seen firsthand the results of WWII. Which, among many thing, included bodies incinerated / destroyed, lost at sea without a burial ceremony, etc. Seems Bonagura, Jr., has forgotten that.
- Amalia - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:06 pm:
“Rep. Cassidy: This is not a Catholic country.” Thank you, Representative Cassidy
- Pundent - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:08 pm:
=If I were Cassidy, and I wanted to advocate for composting, I would have taken Bonadura’s first assumptions to task.=
So instead of saying “leave the rest of us alone” Cassidy should have questioned the existence of heaven? I don’t think she’ll be looking to you for political guidance anytime soon.
- TheInvisibleMan - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:09 pm:
–The forces behind Vatican II–
– Seems Bonagura, Jr., has forgotten that.–
He didn’t forget that. He doesn’t accept it. There is a strong split within the church for a return to the traditions and teachings prior to Vatican II. That’s where he’s coming from. A lusting for a return to the past isn’t just a political thing, it’s happening within this religious organization too.
You can almost see the word ‘Limbo’ forming from his thoughts here. He’s doing everything he can to not say it out loud though.
- Oswego Willy - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:13 pm:
As a Catholic this idea that souls lost to eternity is as likely as when I forget to get a pepper and egg from Johnnie’s during Lent by getting a Johnnie’s Combo or Beef.
Why?
Because the last couple of Catholic parishes I’ve belonged to celebrated cremation with a Mass sending souls to Heaven.
I’m probably more worried about not getting a pepper an egg, k?
Also… ‘Merica ain’t no Catholic country… or any religious country.
The zealots disagree, but this ain’t about that
- JS Mill - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:21 pm:
=and those people were lost into oblivion, just like people who are composted are. There’s no way to bring closure or peace.=
Cermak_rd beat me to it. This is not catholic doctrine and is in fact (speaking to H-W) a nonsense argument.
These are also the same clowns shouting “my body, my choice” during masking. Not so much now.
I hate hypocrites something fierce.
- Lurker - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:32 pm:
Everything this person said about Catholics is false. Further, everything he says about Christianity and knowing the will of God, especially the soul, damns him to hell.
He’s an embarrassment to mankind.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:39 pm:
===He’s an embarrassment to mankind===
I wouldn’t go that far, but WTTW prolly needs to reevaluate its booking strategy.
- Norseman - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:53 pm:
Who’s going to care after the planet dies.
- Suburban Mom - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 12:57 pm:
===The forces behind Vatican II had seen firsthand the results of WWII.===
As well as the growing promise and obvious moral good of organ donation. The Vatican realized the illogic of its positions on “dead bodies must be pretty intact” and revised, and officially they don’t really care what you do with your body as long as it’s treated respectfully.
But it sure makes for better culture-war soundbites to be talking like it’s 1630 and you’re horrified by proto-surgeons dissecting the bodies of executed criminals than to act like it’s 2023 and we know a lot about how bodies decompose and donating your body to science or your organs to others is seen as morally virtuous.
- low level - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:02 pm:
Its stuff like this that gives Catholicism a bad name. That is unfortunate, because it is a very progressive tradition at its heart (turn the other cheek, help the widow and orphan, love your neighbor as yourself, etc)
- Sayitaintso - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:06 pm:
It’s obvious Bonagura has struck a nerve with many Cap Fax followers on the persistently unknowable ‘what happens after we die’. Bonagura takes exception to that however, and does that in dazzling style from his particular perch.
Sincere and spirited as usual, are the Cappers. But from my verifiably mediocre brain power, I would only toss in my long held belief that some people “will do anything for attention”
- TheInvisibleMan - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:09 pm:
–after the planet dies.–
The planet is going anywhere.
We are.
h/t George Carlin
- TheInvisibleMan - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:09 pm:
*isn’t
- OneMan - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:32 pm:
It seems like WTTW was booking for the clicks and the lolz (as the kids used to say). I wonder if folks from the ‘traditional’ funeral/embalming industry decided to avoid being a public face on this.
- MisterJayEm - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:35 pm:
HW,
It’s only a half-hour program.
– MrJM
- Rich Miller - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:38 pm:
===I never said you cannot believe what you want===
Hilarious.
You insulted everyone who just wants to live their own lives. Just a really dumb way to argue, IMHO.
- Joe Bidenopolous - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 1:48 pm:
=turn the other cheek, help the widow and orphan, love your neighbor as yourself, etc=
Thinking those are tenants only of Catholicism is pretty damning. Catholics have a bad rep for some pretty darn good reasons.
Signed,
A recovering Catholic
- Hannibal Lecter - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 2:33 pm:
Man, between this post and the Bears post, people are feeling some kind of way today.
When it comes to religious beliefs (or people’s interpretations of them) you aren’t going to change their minds. Just thank them for their comments and move along. His statements are not going to stop this bill in its tracks.
- Pundent - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 2:39 pm:
=His statements are not going to stop this bill in its tracks.=
Probably not. But they become the basis for like-minded people to claim that religion is “under attack.” And when it comes to zealots, I try not to be complacent.
- Hannibal Lecter - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 2:42 pm:
=== But they become the basis for like-minded people to claim that religion is “under attack.” ===
They are going to claim that anyway. You aren’t going to change their mind. As a matter of fact, you are legitimizing them by giving them a forum.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 2:45 pm:
===you are legitimizing them by giving them a forum. ===
That’s hilarious.
But it also means that, by participating, you’re doing the same. Maybe go take a nap.
- Hannibal Lecter - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 2:50 pm:
=== Maybe go take a nap. ===
I wish I could.
=== That’s hilarious. ===
They say laughter is the best medicine. Looks like I did my good deed for the day.
- low level - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 3:08 pm:
==Thinking those are tenants only of Catholicism is pretty damning. Catholics have a bad rep for some pretty darn good reasons.==
I didnt mean to suggest they were only of Catholicsm, just that those ideals are at its heart. The social Gospel. Granted much of that has been lost w many but that is the church I grew up in. It was very liberal on all levels.
And yes there were bad priests who did evil things. No question but Im not going to condemn the entire faith based on that. I certainly respect your decision to leave. Im inactive as well but still consider myself Catholic.
- JoanP - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 3:26 pm:
= The Vatican realized the illogic of its positions on “dead bodies must be pretty intact” =
I never understood that, coming from a church that distributed saints’ body parts around.
- Dotnonymous - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 4:06 pm:
- It’s only a half-hour program. -
MrJM…with the pole ax…brutal and funny at the same time.
- Steve Polite - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 4:25 pm:
One of my criticisms of the Catholic Church is the penchant for making up extra-biblical rules and requirements for their parishioners. This is one of them.
“Where the bible speaks we speak. Where the bible is silent we are silent.” - Thomas Campbell
- Big Dipper - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 5:35 pm:
==I never understood that, coming from a church that distributed saints’ body parts around.==
I think the bones of Mark the gospel writer are on tour in Morton Grove right now.
- Give Us Barabbas - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 6:13 pm:
Back in Catholic school, wayyy back in the sixties, when the nuns could and were encouraged to whack you with a ruler if you got out of line, - it was a common question students asked the nuns and priest. “What happens to people blown up in explosions or lost at sea?” And the catechism class answer was: wherever your remains are, in whatever state, God reconstitutes your body on Resurrection day. Like undoing the Thanos snap in the Avengers movie. God can do anything, and is not limited by conditions men in funeral parlor businesses set. As has been pointed out, historically, that guy on TV was dead wrong in every aspect about burial customs of the Church, or the Hebrew faith preceding it.
This guy on the TV is shilling for the funeral industry, mis-representing articles of Catholic faith to do so. He’d better go to confession for it.
If you want to be composted, as long as it’s done in a responsible manner under proper regulations, I wish you well and say be happy, follow your bliss. This issue is not one to be dictated by a theocracy, and I say that as a lay part of that theocracy. it’s a matter of personal choice and the state should enable it, not bow to funeral industry lobbyists.
- Big Dipper - Thursday, May 4, 23 @ 7:15 pm:
==And the catechism class answer was: wherever your remains are, in whatever state, God reconstitutes your body on Resurrection day.==
We were told you would look like you did at 33 because that was the age that Jesus died. So make sure you hit the gym for at least that one year.