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In which I try to defend an expansion of a wildly unpopular policy
Tuesday, Oct 22, 2024 - Posted by Rich Miller * I’m fully aware that lots of folks hate speed and red light cams. This is just one reason why they’re superior to human enforcement…
Everyone has a beef. People with some political power or savvy can often talk their way out of tickets, so they hate automated cams. As the study shows, Black people are slightly more likely to speed in the first place, so they have a reason to gripe. But the number of speeders on expressways and streets is just ridiculous. And it’s not fair to the people who drive by the rules to see these crazies never or rarely held accountable. * The study is here. From the explainer…
With all of the unsolved crimes in the region, expanding speed and red light cams to free up cops to do actual police work would be a good thing. It would also give law enforcement even more data to solve crimes. Getaway car drives too fast or runs a red light? Well, you now have evidence that could tie a suspect to the scene. * The cams are derided for being cash cows, but they do their job without bias, as long as their placement locations are not biased. I mean is it really too much to ask to stay within a reasonable margin of the posted speed limit and not brazenly run red lights? We should have more, not less. And if it brings in more money? Have a debate on what it should be used for, like safer roads or property tax rebates. And as someone who’s been caught by a couple of speed cams, I reject the “Big Brother” notion because there’s one very good way to escape the cams: Don’t violate extremely basic, well-posted and universally understood traffic laws. Also, if you have questions about the methodology or other details, click here for the study link before popping off in comments. Thanks.
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- Cool Papa Bell - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:03 pm:
=With all of the unsolved crimes in the region, expanding speed and red light cams to free up cops to do actual police work would be a good thing.=
I’d offer in Springfield, cops aren’t doing much traffic enforcement what-so-ever. I personally don’t care about speed cams, add them to the interstate in places please. To red light cams; just get rid of them on red light turns.
- ModerateGOP - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:03 pm:
Drive around Springfield on any given day and you will see countless numbers of vehicles blatantly running red lights. There is next to no traffic enforcement from police that I can see. It’s long past time to allow more areas of the state the ability to use this technology.
- DuPage Saint - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:05 pm:
I would love to see cameras on stop signs
And the tollway should issue tickets based on your speed between tolls
- H-W - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:08 pm:
Thanks for sharing this report, Rich. I am particularly concerned with the non-compliance aspect regarding registration renewals. As I look at cars in my parking lot each day (state property parking for state employees), I routinely see license plates that are out of compliance by more than a few months, and some that are (a) out of state, and (b) out of registration in that other state.
Why the police do not use scanners to catch such non-compliance baffles me. I know about the “we want a moving violation first” argument. I just think that’s a weak argument that also benefits white folks more than people of color.
I also know how it would be very, very easy to abuse that time of enforcement by patrolling residential parking. But on public property, and in private businesses parking lots, we could sure recoup a few tax dollars.
- Jose Abreu's Next Homerun - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:11 pm:
My area in Mayfair in Chicago, east of Elston and between Lawrence and Montrose, there are tons of cars with no license plates, illegal parking, and speed limit is whatever you want it to be. The only time I see tickets are for the street cleaning days.
- Benjamin - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:16 pm:
Well put, Rich. I agree with you; let the robots handle this and let the police go do something that only they can do, like solve crimes.
- KBS - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:17 pm:
I would strongly support expanding the use of red light and speed cameras, for all the reasons you suggest. But I believe it’s illegal for cities to install them outside of Cook County, and I bet that would be a tough law to change.
- ??? - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:18 pm:
== Black people are slightly more likely to speed in the first place ==
Wanna walk this one back Rich?
- Suburban Mom - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:19 pm:
I’m suspicious of red light cameras just because of all the scandals. Who’s going to be auditing these things?
- Anon - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:20 pm:
Automating enforcement of nonmoving violations would potentially eliminate bias, but the sheer number of tickets issued due to automation vs. physical traffic stops would end negatively affecting the black community much more financially….
- H-W - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 2:57 pm:
@ ???
I suppose Rich could have said, “based on the study conclusions, and based on the sampling frame used,” but what Rich said does not need to be walked back. He reported on a study, accurately.
- HSI - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:02 pm:
==With all of the unsolved crimes in the region, expanding speed and red light cams to free up cops to do actual police work would be a good thing.==
Almost without exception, every crime has a transportation phase in which evidence of the crime is transported in a motor vehicle.
Criminals are vulnerable to detection while in the transportation phase.
I submit that many crimes are solved due to legitimate traffic stops for legitimate violations.
- Anyone Remember - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:06 pm:
My opposition to red light cameras is they’re run through municipal adjudication rather than the courts. Tickets not run through the court system were ruled “void and unenforceable” (in AG Opinion 92-013), and aren’t reported to the Secretary of State and insurance companies - then Sen. John Cullerton admitted that as long as you paid the fines, you could run red lights all the live long day without SoS and State Farm / Allstate knowing about it. Run them through the court system, appear before a judge, and have violations reported to SoS and State Farm / Allstate, then I’ll support them. Including right turn on red.
- Downstate - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:08 pm:
The communities with red light cameras “exposed” their true intent when they started reducing the length of the yellow light.
Via that action, alone, their purpose was a money grab.
- Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:09 pm:
Assign cops to patrol high crime areas and you get one set of stats.
Assign cops to patrol based only on population with no regard for crime stats, you get another set of numbers.
Pick your poison.
- Donnie Elgin - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:15 pm:
Iowa has new law with a test to look at impact vs effectiveness- many communities had the speed cams set so low that they were nothing more than cash cows- as a result, the majority of speed cams were removed I would rather trust the discretion of a well-trained LEO than the potential greed of local officials in need of $$$
- Two Left Feet - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:17 pm:
Cameras can be used to enforce other traffic laws, like people blowing the bus stop signs https://www.fox32chicago.com/video/1535545
- P. - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:21 pm:
Several “progressive-minded” orgs along with WBEZ pushed a narrative that speed and red light cameras disproportionately targeted marginalized communities and working people, basically they are racist. They were wrong then and wrong know. Cameras target road users that come into their view and are neutral but this misinformed narrative people has set the city back in terms of public safety and revenue.
- 47th Ward - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:31 pm:
===when they started reducing the length of the yellow light.===
Has that been proven?
- Occasionally Moderated - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:32 pm:
I cannot support traffic cameras that are set to cite motorists for marginal violations.
The state police’s preferred enforcement action for 1-9 mph over the speed limit is a warning. Most troopers aren’t going to cite at 10 over on an interstate.
I also distrust the private companies getting involved in enforcement. The shortening of yellow light shenanigans come immediately to mind.
I think this enforcement is wildly unpopular for good reason.
- Demoralized - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:32 pm:
==their purpose was a money grab==
You have complete control over whether they get any of your money.
- Google is Your Friend, yo - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:36 pm:
Yes. Many cities shortened yellow light times on intersections with electronic enforcement and were caught. And shortening yellow lights causes crashes according to ntsb.
Oh the irony.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:41 pm:
===and were caught===
End of story.
- Rich Miller - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 3:48 pm:
===I suppose Rich could have said, “based on the study conclusions, and based on the sampling frame used,”===
I literally wrote “As the study shows”
- P. - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 4:09 pm:
ws- as a result, the majority of speed cams were removed I would rather trust the discretion of a well-trained LEO
This is so funny you think they ticket people in Chicago for traffic violations. No enforcement despite historic increases in roadway deaths. I saw a stop on my block for the first time in 13 years on Sunday. Guy blew a stop right in front of the police and basically they had no choice but to pull him over. Lmk the next time you see CPD parked with a speed camera watching drivers or save yourself the time because it’s going to be never.
- JB13 - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 4:13 pm:
This seems like it would appeal to those who believe the law shouldn’t see color.
But any policy that begins with governments lowering speed limits to artificially low levels, and ends with turning entire cities or road networks into merciless robotic speed traps is a non starter
- H-W - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 4:28 pm:
@ Rich
Yep, I saw that. Apparently that was not enough for the question mark quibbler
- consultant101 - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 4:29 pm:
2 people died today in Springfield at an intersection crash. I’d put money one was running a red light.
- Give Us Barabbas - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 4:36 pm:
I’m for speed cameras and red light cameras but only if they are not run by some outside vendors. They should be run by a dedicated governmental unit, say IDOT, or SOS, or the city public safety bureau, with government employees. All the scandals of the past with these systems seem to be related to outside contractors operating the system. The city should own the cams outright, and fund their operations and maintenance from the fines generated. Camera placement should be suggested by local aldermen based on safety concerns of constituents, and not on the Woodfield model Schaumburg used.
- thechampaignlife - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 4:46 pm:
I am all for automation and safer driving, so I am a big yes to adding more cameras. However, the municipality installing the cameras should not be the direct beneficiary of the fines to reduce perverse incentives. Instead, toss the revenue into the state’s general road or public safety fund, and distribute that to municipalities based on population.
I sympathize with the big brother concerns of pervasive surveillance, so some guardrails are appropriate. At a minimum, a published policy should be required which addresses when and how camera data may be accessed for purposes other than signal and speed enforcement, and those instances of access should be publicly reported. There are big differences between a detective accessing recordings of a few cameras near a crime scene for a few relevant hours, live public event or emergency monitoring of dozens of cameras for days, AI data harvesting and tracking movements of specific people across large areas for months, and a domestic abuser stalking their partner using the city’s cameras. Security of the system is also important, so that some third-party or foreign actor does not misuse the data.
- Proud Sucker - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 4:53 pm:
I concur with Barabbas and others. It’s the vendor revenue incentive with which I have a problem. Sell them as a turn-key installation and have the gov’t agencies manage them.
- MyTwoCents - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 5:16 pm:
The cameras can be a good tool, with some rules in place:
1) limited private company involvement, if at all. All tickets are issued by the government, no different than being pulled over.
2) all tickets are treated as traffic tickets, no different than being pulled over, that goes for revenue as well
3) at least initially, the placement is based on high risk intersections and roads with collisions and/or fatalities.
4) the timing of lights need to be determined by traffic engineers & approved by IDOT. Also, reasonable discretion on right turns on red.
5) limits for speeding tickets are determined by a reasonable amount, depending on the speed limit. 80 on the interstate is a different animal than doing 40 in a 30 down a residential street.
As for cash cows, if you don’t want tickets, drive at a reasonable speed and don’t run red lights.
- Lefty Lefty - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 5:27 pm:
I used to be one of those drivers — impatiently waiting for the hatched line to speed past someone doing 59 in a 55 zone, rolling through stop signs, speeding up at yellow lights, etc. You know what? IT DOESN’T GET YOU TO YOUR DESTINATION FASTER.
Doing 40 in a 30 zone just gets you to the next stoplight faster. Rolling through right turns on red puts bikers, dogs, and pedestrians in danger.
A suggestion - put one of your frequent destinations in a navigation app and follow the rules one time and then drive like you typically do the next time. It might save you a couple of minutes. That’s why the apps are so accurate - all the vagaries of driving result in driving recklessly being of no real use. You’re just being a jerk.
Thank you for reading.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 6:06 pm:
They are all over the place in Europe and it doesn’t seem to be a huge issue there. Then again, people are generally against the strong enforcement of laws they break.
- Odysseus - Tuesday, Oct 22, 24 @ 7:39 pm:
“And as someone who’s been caught by a couple of speed cams, I reject the “Big Brother” notion because there’s one very good way to escape the cams: Don’t violate extremely basic, well-posted
and universally understood traffic laws.”
Chicago has plenty of highly confusing intersections, where it’s not clear what lane you should be in or where the actual stop lines are.
The one time I have gotten a red light camera ticket was at one of the on-ramps to 90/94 where I was completely overwhelmed.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Wednesday, Oct 23, 24 @ 7:33 am:
=== they do their job without bias, as long as their placement locations are not biased ===
There’s the rub, Rich.
There are no speeding cameras on North Lake Shore Drive, the most heavily speeded road in the city, where most drivers are White.
You can say the same about Clark, Lincoln Ave, Milwaukee.
- Yellow Dog Democrat - Wednesday, Oct 23, 24 @ 7:37 am:
Also, I do worry that cameras do just encourage people to drive even faster between cameras, although we have no data, that just seems to be human nature.
That said, require 10% of all camera revenue to go to mass transit districts. Reducing congestion reduces traffic violations.
- P. - Wednesday, Oct 23, 24 @ 10:43 am:
Apparently adding speed cameras = to DLSD requires a change in state law which should happen asap. They could set the cameras for 60+ mph (limit is 40 mph) and ding people all day and night.
We shouldn’t have to foot the bill for the carnage and mayhem on the roadways caused by reckless drivers - there is a large dollar amount for CFD (who statistically rarely get “fire” calls) and CPD to respond to hundreds of daily crashes not to mention treat unfortunate people who have been maimed. We also pay through increased insurance rates. There’s such a disconnect among selfish and garbage drivers and their impact on the rest of society.