75 Comments - Robert the Bruce - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:02 am: “As a result of that bill, Topinka in 2009 collected a pension worth over $141,000″ is a good attack. I wonder if Simon will raise enough money to put it on TV? - John Boch - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:04 am: Detroit city workers weren’t having any of the talk of reforming pensions ten plus years ago. And now they are getting 16 cents on the dollar on their pensions. Math wins every time, despite all the caterwauling in the world. John - Formerly Known As... - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:05 am: === We call it theft === Because it is. If a private employer: a.) failed to pay their employee match for a few years, then b.) reneged on the terms of the pension itself, while they c.) had access to billions of dollars in other revenue necessary to fulfill those pensions we’d be locking people up in jail. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:12 am: “Sheila …who?” Popping your head up to make a statement after backing the Nekritz Bill is confusing at best. Nothing like dancing with the one who brung ya with that Quote to support Pat Quinn when you knew it was this/close to you running for AG, or running for LG again, or … (scratches head) Wonder what was done first…Filing those pesky petitons yesterday, or this press release ready to go out for today… yesterday? - wordslinger - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:12 am: If everything passes today, it’s going to be a heavy-lift in court to explain clipping pensions due to fiscal crisis on the same day you gave taxpayer funds to a company that made $2 billion last year. - Robert the Bruce - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:13 am: @Formerly Known As… In what world do private employers who slash pensions get locked up in jail? More likely, their execs get larger stock bonuses. - Raising Kane - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:15 am: David Miller did the pension thing in 2010 and so did that guy who ran against JBT in the primary. It didn’t matter a bit…and to your second question: they both probably spent more money than Simon will have. BTW….they also managed to file their petitions on the first day. She is just a terrible candidate all the way around. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:16 am: How exciting, its never fun to talk about “fiscal stuff” unless Detroit is thrown in. Whew! I was afraid we couldn’t fit it in, but as long as we put “Detroit” in this, then I know we have the Adults in the room. Yikes. - Raising Kane - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:19 am: Detroit is a City. Cities can declare bankruptcy and states cannot. This is a bankruptcy judge. Despite the breathless reporting from some lazy reporters, the Detroit ruling has nothing to do with Illinois. - Drago - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:20 am: Interesting that Jan Schakowsky would weigh in. Of course, Jan had an opportunity to address the issue when she was actually in Springfield, but instead did nothing at all. Great to see that she finally has come up some ideas. - Norseman - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:20 am: I’ll be robbed of $39,843.55 by year 2034. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:20 am: Ok, I want to be fair. Maybe I need to see how Sheila Simon handled pensions as mayor of Carbondale, and how … Sorry, my bad. - Archimedes - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:23 am: I bet Sheila Simon would be a viable candidate in Detroit…. - Meanderthal - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:33 am: Might have been nice if Jan Schakowsky directed some of that legalese at her husband to keep him out of the pokey a few years back. - grand old partisan - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:33 am: Hmmm…. that line about “last generation of politicians” is interesting, when you consider that the current House Speaker (and Chair of Ms. Simon’s political party) was not only in the legislature at the same time as JBT, but was the Speaker even then. Now, it’s likely (if not certain) that the Speaker will remain the Speaker into what would be Ms. Simon’s first term as Treasurer. Perhaps she can explain how she would stand up against the man who has presided over so much irresponsibility during his lengthy tenure. The floor is yours, Ms. Simon….. - Mokenavince - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:34 am: Sheila it’s now or never. With thanks to Elvis! - Formerly Known As... - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:35 am: @Robert the Bruce A good question. There is a difference between “slashing” and “theft”. Illinois “slashed” pensions in 2010, when we passed benefit reductions totaling $220 Billion for new hires. What is happening today would be theft and/or misappropriation of funds. The Department of Labor, for example, has an entire “newsroom” announcing these sorts of cases: www.dol.gov/ebsa/newsroom/criminal/ They also announced a “Contributory Plans Criminal Project” in April 2013: www.dol.gov/ebsa/newsroom/fscpcp.html Those who “slash” do seem to get the “bonuses”, while those who “steal” get locked up. 2010 was “slashing”. This is “stealing”. - Taser - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:35 am: Raising Kane - Other governmental entities besides municipalities can declare bankruptcy. It’s likely that Illinois’ pension systems - not the state - will declare bankruptcy if the underfunding is allowed to continue. - Anotherretiree - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:36 am: sovereign - Ruby - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:41 am: This pension bill is theft for many reasons and here is just one reason: This unfair pension bill is a retirement theft that will reduce the life-savings of teachers. Many retired teachers do not have the benefit of Social Security or Medicare. They depend on their COLA to pay for the cost of their health care. The teacher’s retirement insurance plan HMO health care insurance will cost $276 per month ($359 per month when a managed care plan is not available in their county of residence) with an out of pocket of $ 3000 a year. Retired teachers with an average pension can’t afford to pay this. - Sue - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:43 am: For Dan Montgomery- Don’t be overly confident that all of those impairment legal opinions you and your fellow unionists are counting on- the only legal opinion that matters will be the one issued by the Illinois Supreme Court which most likely - Sue - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:44 am: For Dan Montgomery- Don’t be overly confident that all of those impairment legal opinions you and your fellow unionists are counting on- the only legal opinion that matters will be the one issued by the Illinois Supreme Court which most likely won’t want the State to mirror Detroit 10 years from now likely - wordslinger - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:46 am: Is mentioning “Detroit” a drinking game for some? That would explain a lot. Slow down, folks, it’s not even noon! - Just Observing - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:47 am: === Interesting that Jan Schakowsky would weigh in. === It’s an easy swipe for Jan to take to bolster public sector support. As a Congresswoman who doesn’t have to vote on this, she won’t be hurt one or the other. - Raising Kane - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:49 am: Taser, the pensions systems cannot declare bankruptcy because they are a unit of state govt. not stand-alone entities. - Niles Township - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:52 am: Cong. Jan Schakowsky: “I hope this proposal will be rejected so that a more balanced approach can be passed…’ Me at every election: “I hope this congresswoman can be rejected so that a more balanced congressperson can be elected…” - GA Watcher - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:54 am: Oswego Willy: Sheila Simon has never been Mayor of Carbondale. She lost her attempt at the office in 2007. - Raising Kane - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 11:57 am: GA Watcher…I think that might have been a bit of sarcastic humor on Willy’s part. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:00 pm: - GA Watcher -, Indeed, it was sarcasm. Let’s be honest here, Sheila’s resume is so thin, it is pretty easy to remember it. All good, - GA Watcher -. - Anon III - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:03 pm: I doubt that Cong. Schakowsky penned her statement. More likely, she is doing some lobbyist a favor. There is more “Astroturf” on this thread and similar, than the Bears tripped over in the Hump dome last weekend. - 47th Ward - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:04 pm: ===Is mentioning “Detroit” a drinking game for some?=== It must have replaced “U-Haul” for the mouth breathers. - Bobbysox - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:05 pm: Why slam Jan? Where was all the slamming of Kirk? (Mark, not Captain). - Anon - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:07 pm: Detroit isn’t applicable. Not to mention, John Boch’s right when he says that math caused their problem. But not in the way you think… Orr hired his own actuaries to fudge the numbers in order to make the plans look bad enough that he could take over and subsequently cut benefits. - Drago - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:15 pm: Bobbysox, Initially, I thought people commented on Kirk yesterday. Second, I commented on Jan and and not Mark because only Jan had spent time in Springfield. Given that she helped create the mess, I found her comments a bit more interesting than those of Mark. - Old and in the Way - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:24 pm: Taser Don’t hang out your shingle until you finish law school, OK? The Pension funds cannot declare bankruptcy anymore than the state can…….so peddle your hysteria somewhere else. However, there are two items in the bill that would suggest that the collective leadership in the GA are not that confident of the legal outcome. I point to the prohibition of the Pension funds paying for health costs and the clause declaring the pension obligation subordinate to bond obligations………it’s called covering your #%#. Also check the severability of the bills various components. Bottom line, not all of this survives judicial scrutiny and judgement. This is political theatre in Illinois my friends! RNUG has it figured. Next, the Maag opinion in February! - Pete - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:28 pm: “… previous generation of longtime politicians.” Which generation is Mike Madigan? - DuPage - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:31 pm: If any private employer tries to divert their employees social security contributions a lot of things happen fast, as many employers have learned. IRS auditors show up and inspect the payroll records. The business is given a couple weeks to pay in full. IRS agents show up at 2AM, change the locks, chain and padlock the main gate. They then proceed to auction off assets to pay the amounts owed. If the IRS finds 2 sets of books or phony payroll records, the owners face criminal charges and jail time. - Old and in the Way - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:32 pm: Pete Prehistoric? He was at the Constitutional Convention when I was in law school and clerked the convention! He should know better but he is not alone in his culpability. Let’s see, there’s Thompson, Edgar, Ryan, Blago, Daniels, Phillip………you get the idea. - equivocator - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:33 pm: One aspect of this bill that has not been discussed much involves the earlier cost shift arguments to school systems and universities. This would reduce the normal pension costs for the state if phased in. The School cost shift was opposed strongly by the repubs as a type of local property tax increase. I wonder if Madigan has agreed to not push for this cost shift, at least for school districts in order to gain republican support. The universities agreed to do this as part of their reform package. Does anyone know why the cost shift for the normal pension payments has not come up at all? This was still a big deal as recently as of May, 2013. - Old and in the Way - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:35 pm: Best of luck to those in Illinois fighting the good fight! Keep at it. In the end I believe it will turn out…….sorry I’m not there! Now, back to court! - Darien Retiree - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:36 pm: The COLA reductions are drastic even within a few years, let alone ten, 20 or more years from now. Young and currently employed people have options. Retired folks have no options. They should at least lift restrictions for reemployment for those who can still go back to work, but what about the elderly? I will make sure to forever vote against everyone that backs up this bill. Everyone. - Norseman - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:50 pm: Oops, made a stupid mistake in the formula as I was rushing to get ready to pick up the dogs. I’m actually being robbed of $478,122.55 in 20 years. - Pot calling kettle - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 12:58 pm: ==the only legal opinion that matters will be the one issued by the Illinois Supreme Court== The Supremes are looking at their own pensions being cut. While not directly impacted by this bill, the bill sets a precedent that would certainly be applicable to the JRS. - Taser - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 1:23 pm: From the Federal bankruptcy code: Only a “municipality” may file for relief under chapter 9. 11 U.S.C. § 109(c). The term “municipality” is defined in the Bankruptcy Code as a “political subdivision or public agency or instrumentality of a State.” 11 U.S.C. § 101(40). California law prohibits governmental entities from filing bankruptcy but it has prevented the City of Vallejo or Orange County from using the bankruptcy process to alleviate debts. - Taser - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 1:32 pm: This is a good article on municipal bankruptcy. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aFSyRefHzm_Q - Demoralized - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 1:32 pm: ==you and your fellow unionists are counting on== I don’t even know what that means. This affects people out of the union too. Also, Sue, why are you so hostile towards state employees? Your glee at taking money away from people is disgusting. I’m sure you’ll sit on your hands if somebody comes after your retirement. Also, it’s utter nonsense to keep throwing Detroit into this conversation. It is night and day. But I know it’s difficult for some of you to comprehend the differences. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 2:04 pm: Who is going to tell - Taser - that Illinois is a state and not a municipality? - Mason born - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 2:15 pm: Willy What do you go around telling kids there is no Santa Claus too?? Jeesh let him revel in his delusions. - lincolnlover - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 2:31 pm: “retired teachers can’t afford to pay this” (health insurance) Neither can state employees!! Just because I will receive social security and you won’t doesn’t mean my pension income will be larger than yours. After all, no one increased my paycheck 20% over my last 4 years so that my retirement would be bigger. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 2:45 pm: I think Taser is trying to assert that the pension entity is not, in fact, “the state”. It seems he is claiming it is an arm of the state - a “political subdivision or public agency or instrumentality of a State”. I think Taser will find that just because he says it is so, doesn’t make it so. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 2:48 pm: - Mason born -, 1) I still “hear the bell” when I watch “The Polar Express”, k? That is all I will say about the man in the Red Suit! lol 2) I can’t take being “taught” something irrelevant to the facts needed to make a case, especially using California municipals or Detroit as equal to a state. If - Taser - brings Cannoli for all of us, then I guess I can let it slide. - facts are stubborn things - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 2:52 pm: I have been saying this for some time now, you are seeing a politcal solution play out to solve a legal and fiscal problem. This is the road the GA feels they need to go for now. After the courts rule, they will have cover to make change. - Mason born - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:02 pm: Willy agree on the #2. But i think taser will get his come-up-ence when the state Supremes take this up. Of course that is if Madigan and cullerton have a big enough whip. It was meant in jest by the way. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:06 pm: - Mason born -, Its all fine. I was actually haveing more fun with 1) of my Post! It’s going to the courts, one way or another. I have no idea how that will go, nor do I want to speculate. - Taser - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:08 pm: Oswego Willy and Dupage Dan - The entity declaring bankruptcy must be a municipality within the meaning of the Bankruptcy Code. The definition of municipality in the Bankruptcy Code is quite broad, and includes cities, counties and other instrumentalities of the state. It does not include states themselves. Section 109(c) defines municipality to mean“a political subdivision or public municipality or instrumentality of a state.” I’m not an advocate of pension systems declaring bankruptcy but it is a likely legal maneuver if the pension systems remain underfunded because it is clear that a state cannot use bankruptcy to alleviate debt. Acting like an Ostrich now is not in your self interest. You ignore actions in other jurisdictions - especially the largest municipal bankruptcy in US History - at your own peril. - truthteller - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:11 pm: If the state has a liability of $100 billion, it owes that money to someone(s). If the liability is reduced by $20 billion, but the someone(s) to whom it was owed are not paid the $20 billion, then how did it get paid? It wasn’t paid . It was stolen, pure and simple. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:12 pm: - Taser -, This isn’t Sophomore year. If it makes you feel better to ride your horse with Paco and attack windmills, by all means, no one will stop you, but that doesn’t mean we want to go on your quest to look at this illogically. - Taser - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:14 pm: OW - you are proving that ignorance is truly bliss. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:15 pm: - Taser -, You are proving that a little knowledge about something irrelevent is a dangerous thing. lol - Anon. - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:18 pm: ==Who is going to tell - Taser - that Illinois is a state and not a municipality?== Go easy on Taser — the notion that the retirees’ contractual/constitutional claims were against the pension funds, not against the state itself, was the basis for the Sidley legal opinion that some of the pension “reformers” were using a couple of years ago to argue that the state could simply welch on its obligations by not funding the funds. - Taser - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:23 pm: Thank you Anon 3:18 - I had forgotten where I picked up the notion that a pension system would declare bankruptcy - not the state itself. I’m not an advocate of using BK - I’m pointing out how it could be used by creative lawyers - like the ones employed by Sidley and Austin. FYI from the Detroit News: “In a single ruling, U.S. Bankruptcy Judge Steven Rhodes overturned a 50-year belief that vested public-sector pensions are protected by the state constitution under Chapter 9 and allowed the largest municipal bankruptcy in American history to proceed. Rhodes’ ruling on pensions, certain to be appealed, will reverberate nationwide. With cities, even states, grappling with ballooning unfunded pension liabilities, there are growing concerns that the obligations promised to public-sector retirees associated with municipalities could be discharged in Chapter 9 bankruptcy.” From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20131203/METRO01/312030079#ixzz2mRu5PcQD - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:28 pm: - Taser -, Duclinea is calling. I think she is in Detriot. Or California. When you get to Illinois with Paco, you just let us know and we will get the windmills spinning. If this was remotely relevent, everyone and their brother would already be clamoring about it. Not germane. - Norseman - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:31 pm: Taser = Troll We shouldn’t feed Trolls. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:32 pm: - Norseman -, You know, these are the times I need you most. - Norseman - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 3:39 pm: Willy, No problem we need to keep you fresh for verbal fencing with folks who are rational. - DavStevens - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 4:19 pm: My wife and I will have almost $450,000 in income over the next 20 years stolen from us if this bill is passed. We are willing to pay our share, but this problem is not of our making and and we should not have to solve it all ourselves. Further, it is blatantly unconstitutional. The benefits of membership in a public pension system may not be diminished or impaired. The drastic COLA cuts clearly violate this clause. - John Boch - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 5:10 pm: WSJ calls Illinois’ “fake” pension plan “quarter-baked”. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303670804579233901035185122 - Yankee - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 6:32 pm: Davstevens: I calculated your numbers. Are you and your wife earning $250,000 in combined pension to come up with 450,000 loss due to no cola. Use an interest calculator. Put in your yearly pension, 3% compounded yearly for 20 year and let us know what you come up with. Notice, my figures are with no cola, but you will be receiving some cola. I have a $66,000 pension and will lose about $120,000 if I lost my entire cola (3%). If I have lost half my cola I will lose $60,000 in 20 years and be making only $126,000. I’ll probably have to go on food stamps! - PoolGuy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 7:03 pm: thank you Yankee I was thinking the same thing. I was trying to figure out how a couple could lose $450K over 20 years. whew. - Soccertease - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 7:20 pm: Going to talk to John Stevens who I happen to know about what is involved in filing charges against Madigan et. al for their failure to uphold the constitution-after SC ruling. Know it won’t go anywhere but might be fun. - Yankee - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 7:22 pm: Pool guy: I, in my remarks, have mentioned what my pension is, but no one else who has remarked has said what their pension is. I find that interesting. Good gosh, when is enough, enough! We retirees should feel sorry for those still teaching. They are the ones who will really suffer. I have been retired ten years and in the first year and a half received back what I paid into the system over thirty four years. Do the math! Illinois does not print money. - One Ocean - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 7:25 pm: Yankee - If you have a $66,000 pension your total pension over 20 years without a COLA is $1,320,000. If you have a 1.5% compounded COLA it is $1,549,054. If you have a 3% compounded COLA it is $1,826,648. You will be losing $506,648 over the 20 years if you get no COLA. If you have a 1.5% compounded COLA at the end of 20 years you will be making $88,892. Still no need for food stamps. - PoolGuy - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 7:36 pm: one ocean, okay I see what you are saying. thank you for providing the info. i’m glad I am also able to contribute to my deferred compensation plan, which I realize not everyone with a family and on a tight budget can do. we’ll see what the ISC has to say now. - Yankee - Tuesday, Dec 3, 13 @ 8:00 pm: One ocean: you are right about the numbers. If I need to go on food stamps in twenty years, I’ll probably be way back in line. With an $89,000 pension, I’ll probably be in the sixty percentile or above of earners. Too many bumps, no cap on pension income, state not contributing. This is just the tip of the iceberg. What is your solution? - Ronin2 - Wednesday, Dec 4, 13 @ 8:20 am: Rep. Schakowsky publicly spoke against the bill but secretly backed it. Privately she directed all the legislators she controls to vote for it. Fine, Grabel, Neckritz, and Biss to name a few. Neckrita and Biss were prime movers. She says one thing but tows the Madigan line behind the scenes. She is a big supporter of Madigan’s daughter. I hope the voters remember this theft when Madigan runs for Gov. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.