75 Comments - PublicServant - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:29 am: ===You gotta wonder if the Illinois Policy Institute would support a bill allowing all customers to eat at restaurants without paying a dime.=== That’s different…because Madigan! - Anonymous - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:30 am: The beginning of the end for public unions. By the time this reaches the USSC, the Court will be solidly conservative. Your last hope died with November’s election. - Not It - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:33 am: You’re not comparing apples to apples. Citizens have a Constitutional right to work for their government. They don’t have a Constitutional right to eat in a restaurant. - weltschmerz - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:38 am: And how many restaurants that only kept their surliest waitstaff and most incompetent cooks, would have any customers? I see your silly analogy and raise. - Honeybear - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:41 am: The truth is that RTW is actually beginning to have the opposite effect in a few RTW states. Union membership is riding in Colorado and Michigan. I think just like Rauner United labor you are going to see a lot more of this. It’s an article of faith I hold close. I welcome RTW as a cleansing change. I want to stand with only those who want to stand with me. If I’m doing my job right, and meeting member needs hopes and resources then they will naturally want to stay Union. The rebuild and power is from the ground up. Union Marines are what we need to be about. I also like Union Gurkhas. - AC - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:42 am: Publicly regulated utilities spend money on lobbying, yet I’m not able to opt for “fair share” with AMEREN or Commonwealth Edison. Private property ownership is a rather basic right, yet nearly all new developments require dues paid to homeowners associations (HOAs). Many HOAs send a portion of their dues to CAI, a lobbying organization, and there’s no “fair share” opt out for the portion of dues used for lobbying. On those issues, right wing “advocacy” groups are nowhere to be found, but when it comes to unions, “fair share” doesn’t go far enough. Anyone who advocates that unions shouldn’t even be allowed to recover their costs doesn’t want unions to survive. Yet we wonder why the share of wealth is far more concentrated in this country than it is anywhere else in the industrialized world. - Political Animal - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:44 am: ==You gotta wonder if the Illinois Policy Institute would support a bill allowing all customers to eat at restaurants without paying a dime.== Except in that situation the customers are choosing to exchange money for food. It’s voluntary. They are FORCED to accept the union’s “bargaining services”, whether they want them or not, as a condition of employment. That’s the whole “sole bargaining unit” bit. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:46 am: ===It’s voluntary. === Nobody is forced to work for the state. - Dance Band on the Titanic - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:46 am: Strikes me as a contradiction that the same group that claims our state should be fiscally responsible is the same group that is paying the freight for those who want to freeload off of others. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:47 am: …And there are tons of other rules and regs regarding state employment. Should we get rid of all those too because somebody might be upset? - Anonymous - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:49 am: ==Nobody is forced to work for the state.== Same can be said to AFSCME workers complaining about their pay bring frozen or reduced in a budget crisis. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:49 am: =Nobody is forced to work for the state.= That’s such a weak argument we hear here all the time. No one is forced to eat either. The reality is people need to work and eat. No one should be forced to pay to an almost 100% political organization in order to keep their job. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:50 am: The falsehood of “freedom” that is being free from joining a Union is comical, given the whole idea that people change jobs every day, never worrying they CAN’T leave one job for another. “No, you must stay at this job” Jobs have criteria. You don’t like the criteria, you have freedom to move on to other opportunities. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:51 am: ===The reality is people need to work=== Agreed. But there is no absolute right to work anywhere on your own terms. It’s a free country. Get another job. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:51 am: Should all businesses be forced to pay dues to the GOP friendly Chamber of Commerce? All guns owners required to give money to the Republican backing NRA? - Annonin' - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:52 am: “You’re not comparing apples to apples. Citizens have a Constitutional right to work for their government. They don’t have a Constitutional right to eat in a restaurant.” What constitution are you smokin’ The better question is does a worker have a right to mooch the various services. benefits and protections that are in place because of labor agreement for a job they voluntarily sought and accepted. If that is unacceptable shuffle on down to Sam’s. Wonder if IPI will allow us to hang out in that nice office BigBrain bought for them? - Political Animal - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:52 am: ==Nobody is forced to work for the state.== Well employers don’t force employees to pay dues either. Unions do that. There’s a third party here creating conditions on employment when employment should be a contract only between an employer and an employee. They come to mutually agreeable terms, the employee works for them. A more apt restaurant analogy than your original would be if paying the shoe-shiner in the corner was a condition of eating at Bob’s Steak House. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:54 am: ===employment should be a contract only between an employer and an employee=== There’s also collective bargaining. Which you want to destroy. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:54 am: =It’s a free country.= If that were true you think one could work a government job without paying tribute to the political party that represents the government’s interests. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:54 am: you would think* - Anon - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:58 am: Fine. Get rid of fair share. You win. But then you don’t get the benefits either. Problem solved. - Political Animal - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:58 am: ==There’s also collective bargaining. Which you want to destroy.== Wrong, I just think collective bargaining should be voluntary. If 80 out of 100 employees want to negotiate standard terms, let them. If they other 20 don’t want to be bound by those 80, they should have the option not to be. “Free riders” are only a problem because of “sole bargaining units.” - Political Animal - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:00 am: ==Fine. Get rid of fair share. You win. But then you don’t get the benefits either. Problem solved.== Totally agree with this. Non-union employees shouldn’t be eligible for grievance representation, step-pay increases, bumping rights, or whatever else is part of the contract. Let it be up to the employee. If they see the union services as worth the cost, they’ll gladly pay dues. That’s why you see union membership going UP in some RTW states. - Cubs in '16 - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:00 am: Rich makes a good point. It’s not like the State keeps fair share dues a secret to potential employees. You know what you signed up for when you accepted the State position so stop expecting special treatment. Either don’t accept an AFSCME-covered position or work towards a promotion into a merit comp. position if you don’t like fair share. - LTSW - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:01 am: I don’t have an issue with the fair share concept, but AFSCME’s fair share is about 98% of full share dues. Hence many choose to pay the full share under the belief they will get better representation if they have an employment issue. AFSSME members didn’t get much bang for their buck in the last election or the most recent contract negotiations. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:01 am: (Face Palm) ===employment should be a contract only between an employer and an employee=== Then this… ===I just think collective bargaining should be voluntary.=== Maybe you need to sit out a few plays, figure out why people are on your lawn, why you’re angry a clouds… … it appears you are lacking a clear understanding of your own opinions. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:06 am: === I just think collective bargaining should be voluntary=== LOL Then it ain’t collective. - The Dude Abides - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:06 am: These workers who filed the lawsuit obviously don’t like Unions and like the Governor, wishes they would go away. That’s their right. It would be a messy situation for their employer though, the state, if these folks wanted the right to opt out of the Union in every sense, which would result in them negotiating individually with their employer for their benefits such as salary, insurance, etc. There’s the rub, these folks want the same benefits as their coworkers but they don’t want to pay a dime to the organization that negotiates on their behalf. To me that fits the description of a deadbeat. - Blue dog dem - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:16 am: Friedrich vs California will be revisited in late summer/early fall by the SCOTUS. Will this decision put the post to bed? - Juice - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:23 am: Political Animal, it sounds like your issue is with the Taft-Hartley act, passed by conservatives over a Presidential veto that required unions who were elected by a majority of their workers to be the exclusive representative to represent all of the workers, even those who choose not to be members of the union. I think if federal law didn’t require unions to represent workers who weren’t members, we could have an honest discussion about this. But forcing unions to do the work without being able to seek compensation from the people receiving their services is a politically motivated illegal taking, plain and simple. - Honeybear - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:30 am: I agree, the end of the union is in sight. - Not It - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:36 am: While nobody is forced to work for state government, they do have a Constitutional right to. Requiring someone to pay a fee to a union in order to exercise this Constitutional right is wrong and the purpose of this lawsuit. - Steward As Well.... - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:37 am: Relax HB it’s not quite over yet. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:38 am: ===in order to exercise this Constitutional right=== Where is that Constitutional right enumerated? - DuPage Saint - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:40 am: I no longe have kids in public school yet I pay real estate taxes to support that. How unfair let me opt out - The Dude Abides - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:42 am: @Blue Dog I expect Neil Gorsuch to be confirmed by Summer. I can’t say with 100% certainty but I am expecting that he will provide that 5th vote against the Union. - Anon - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 11:42 am: Thanks, Juice. Someone needs to work on repealing Taft-Hartley, or at least that part of it. - notbuyingit - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:02 pm: ==If they other 20 don’t want to be bound by those 80, they should have the option not to be.= Reality check. I hope those 20 have their checks already made out to their local politicians, or they will be free-riders, free of employment. Those are the 2 options of employment at the State of IL. Get rid of the COLLECTIVE bargaining, and all you have left is 1 option, donate. NOT the solution. It’s funny how many republican Public Service Adminstrators ran to the union when Blago got elected isn’t it? It’s like the LRB was Best Buy and it was black Friday…all of the scratching and clawing. - Nick Name - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:02 pm: “These workers who filed the lawsuit obviously don’t like Unions” The poor dears. Crying all the way to the bank with their union scale paychecks. - Young dinosaur - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:03 pm: Trygg does not even pay dues to the union now. He pays to the charity of his choice. - Past the Rule of 85 - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:07 pm: Juice at 11:23 nailed it. Until federal labor laws are changed so labor unions are no longer forced to represent people not paying dues these RTW people are no different than anybody else sponging off others. - jon r - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:10 pm: all unions that i have been in (3) have a dues objector clause you pay lesser amount , after filing paper with the local… - Jack Kemp - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:10 pm: Juice, federal does not require that unions represent anyone other than their own members. They choose to do so of their own voilition. If they want to represent their members and their members only, all they have to do is relinquish their exclusive bargaining representative status. - Huh? - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:19 pm: “While nobody is forced to work for state government, they do have a Constitutional right to.” Really?!?! So when I was laid off for a year and applied to the State for entry level jobs for which I was over qualified for and didn’t get, I should have sued because my constitutional right to work for the State was violated? That is a new one on me. - Mama - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:25 pm: - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 10:54 am: Your agreement is very weak because the unions can not force any union member to vote a certain way. To prove my point, look which political party Sangamon County voter supports. - Juice - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:39 pm: Jack Kemp, the law doesn’t require an employer to negotiate with a union that does not have exclusive representative status, so that would be a pretty strong reason to maintain it. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 12:42 pm: The NRA and the C of C can’t force their members to vote a certain way either, but we know where the majority of their money goes. - Demoralized - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 1:52 pm: Robert: You’re not forced to be a member of the NRA. You’re not forced to be a member of the Chamber of Commerce. And, you’re not forced to take a job that requires union membership. I have no idea what is so difficult to understand about the concept. - anon - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:00 pm: There is nothing contested in the hearing tomorrow. BOTH sides — yes the 2 employees- ask the court of appeals to affirm the dismissal of the suit. It is just a procedural step to get to the Supreme Court. So the real argument will come when they seek permission to appeal there. The Supreme Court is the only ballgame that counts now. - Together - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:04 pm: HB673 is a good middle of the road solution. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:22 pm: You’re not forced to start a business or own a gun. But if you do you need to pay fair-share to these private organizations who work for your benefit. Same argument the union uses. Ridiculous huh? - Demoralized - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:34 pm: The only argument that is ridiculous is yours. NOBODY is forced to take a union job. Period. End of story. You’re arguments are laughable. - CapnCrunch - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:45 pm: Never have understood why if being a member of a union is such a good thing that joining one should be made compulsory. - Anon - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:45 pm: Juice and Jack Kemp, that exchange really got to the root of the problem. What a dilemma. - Ma'at's Feather - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:48 pm: If you are in a UNION-COVERED position, then you should pay union dues or fair share. If you don’t want to pay union dues, then get a NON-UNION-COVERED position. There are quite a few in the state, since many NON-UNION-COVERED positions (merit-comp) have been vacated recently by people either retiring or finding jobs that don’t freeze their wages for ten years! If you don’t like paying union dues or fair share, and therefore, don’t like the benefits that the union gets for you, take a job that that is not covered by a union and the benefits that come with that (currently: no pay raises, and just a few years ago, mandatory furlough, no pay for overtime, along with the ever-delightful anxiety of knowing you could be fired at any time for any reason). I was merit comp for nine years, and it’s no fun! We need to protect unions in this country, since they are under attack nationwide. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 2:55 pm: Juice @ 11:23…..Bingo! - Whatever - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 3:10 pm: ==The beginning of the end for public unions. By the time this reaches the USSC, the Court will be solidly conservative. Your last hope died with November’s election.== Not if they do the right thing, and say that, “If you choose not to join the union, you don’t get the protection of the union contract.” See how many of those freedom-lovers will choose not to join the union when the contract says that no one outside the union can be paid as much as, or promoted ahead of, any union member in the same job, and non-union employees have to be laid off first. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 3:15 pm: =Not if they do the right thing, and say that, “If you choose not to join the union, you don’t get the protection of the union contract.”= Employers would entice employees to quit the union by negotiating tough with the union and more generous with individuals. The union would be paid according to the lowest common denominator. - Downstate - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 4:10 pm: The biggest difficulty for public sector unions is there is no counter balance in negotiating a contract. In the commercial sector, if a union pushes too hard, it can bankrupt a company. In the public sector, there’s not the same counterbalance. In fact, with public sector unions they try to vote out the politician that doesn’t give them what they want. As a result, for the politicos, negotiating with the unions is a “lose-lose” proposition. - Honeybear - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 4:33 pm: Nice gaslighting Robert - Countersz - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 4:39 pm: ==Employers would entice employees to quit the union by negotiating tough with the union and more generous with individuals. The union would be paid according to the lowest common denominator.== How is this good for most workers? Makes no sense. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 4:42 pm: Nice term Honeybear. I had to look it up! - Honeybear - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 4:47 pm: Robert- confession. I just learned the term two days ago. It is a good one. - SN1789 - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 5:11 pm: The better (though longer) analogy is a vendor like Pepsi having a contract with a college to sell Pepsi on the campus. Then (thanks to the right to free ride) offer the students, faculty and staff the choice between paying a lower or a higher price for a can of Pepsi from the same machine. Eventually, Pepsi will go broke as more customers choose the lower free-riding price, which of course is the goal. Unionized public sector jobs are the last bastion of middle class stability for the bottom 90% of the education attainment scale. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 5:16 pm: Most class A truck drivers make more a year than most state employees. What do you consider their education attainment scale? - Whatever - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 5:21 pm: ==Employers would entice employees to quit the union by negotiating tough with the union and more generous with individuals. The union would be paid according to the lowest common denominator.== If the employers could do that, they would already be paying the union according to the lowest common denominator. The unions exist and get the employees to sign up because they get the employees a better deal than they would get bargaining on their own. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 5:25 pm: I don’t think that model would be sustained. It would be a “bait and switch” tactic. Not saying I agree with it but it seems like the obvious move for management to get ride of the union. - Robert the 1st - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 5:29 pm: I guess I’m saying I agree RTW weakens unions and of course that’s the purpose of the laws. - Grandson of Man - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 6:48 pm: “This is a fundamental violation of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution” It has nothing to do with the First Amendment. Fair share fees pay for nuts-and-bolts services unions provide, such as bargaining, contracts and all their benefits, grievances, etc. This is no different for the private sector than for the public sector. Having a double standard is discrimination. It’s treating public workers as being “less than” private workers. There are multiple opportunities for government workers to express their First Amendment rights when it comes to public unionization: 1) Be like Boeing workers in South Carolina and don’t vote for a union to begin with 2) Vote to de-certify the union 3) Change the political culture of the union Also, as Scalia implied, government workers have free speech limitations at work. Managers can refuse to grant workers’ demands in the workplace and stop the workers from continuing to make demands or requests. Workers don’t have unlimited free speech at work. This balances out with workers who choose to pay union dues. They have First Amendment rights also. - Anonymous - Tuesday, Feb 28, 17 @ 9:51 pm: The law should be changed so that unions aren’t FORCED to represent employees who don’t want to be represented. Let them fend for their own wages. Retirement vacation holidays job security etc etc. if they don’t want to pay. Fine. Don’t pay but they shouldn’t get the benefits - Honeybear - Wednesday, Mar 1, 17 @ 7:10 am: Anonymous 9:51 that is not correct. We are forced by law to represent all employees as the sole bargaining unit in collective bargaining. BY LAW!!!! Taft Hartley I believe - Demoralized - Wednesday, Mar 1, 17 @ 7:40 am: Honeybear: He said the law should be changed. He didn’t argue that is the way it is now. - Honeybear - Wednesday, Mar 1, 17 @ 8:43 am: My response should have been. Individuals in a bargaining unit can’t be on their own because it would legally collapse collective bargaining - City Zen - Wednesday, Mar 1, 17 @ 9:06 am: ==And, you’re not forced to take a job that requires union membership.== So the person is not forced to take the union job, but the job is forced to join the union. It’s fun to hear management-speak is the defense of worker rights. - City Zen - Wednesday, Mar 1, 17 @ 9:09 am: ==The law should be changed so that unions aren’t FORCED to represent employees who don’t want to be represented. Let them fend for their own wages.== Would you mind if STEM and Special Ed teachers formed their own union to demand a bigger slice of the contract pie because their services are in high demand? Because they can’t do that today. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.