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“What the hell are we supposed to do?”

Friday, Apr 16, 2021

* Rep. Edgar Gonzalez, Jr. (D-Chicago) speaking today on the House floor about the police shooting of Adam Toledo in his district, just four blocks from his house

Did you see the video? It just came out yesterday. I watched it on the floor here at my desk. The officer said, ‘Police! Stop! Stop right effing now!’ So what did Adam do? He stopped. The officer said, ‘Hands! Show me your effing hands!’ What did Adam do? He put his hands up.

So if you put your hands up, they shoot. If you put your hands down, they shoot. If you walk, you run, you hide, you sleep, you do exactly as they say, they still shoot. So, I ask the members of this chamber: What are we supposed to do? What the hell are we supposed to do?

- Posted by Rich Miller        

  1. - the Edge - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:02 am:

    Yup, the only thing I can think about is to demilitarize the police; stop training them to shoot first.

  2. - JS Mill - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:05 am:

    Not an unfair question from the Rep.

  3. - CM - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:05 am:

    Honestly, as horrible as the video was I’m afraid of a kneejerk reaction. I live in a small town with it’s own police department. I really fear that state reacting with some new police bill that reduces it’s effectiveness or worse yet causes it to shutdown and force us to rely on the sheriffs department like some of the other small towns. Decatur’s crime has gotten BAD and I don’t want it to spill over here.

  4. - Jocko - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:06 am:

    ==So what did Adam do?==

    He seems to forget that Adam ran away from the officer at 2:30 in the morning after shooting his pistol. Rather than dropping it during the chase, he tossed the gun away during a break in the fence at the last possible moment. For all the officer knew, their could have been an accomplice standing there out of view.

  5. - MaryHeart - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:10 am:

    - an accomplice standing there out of view-
    So because there might be an accomplice, we shoot the formerly armed and now unarmed person standing there with their hands in the air??? This is a curious defense - and I use the work “curious” as in Alice in Wonderland “curious.” That’s some rabbit-hole thinking there..

  6. - Cubs in '16 - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:10 am:


    Point being the kid complied with the officer’s commands and still got shot. None of your justifications makes that ok.

  7. - Candy Dogood - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:15 am:

    ===For all the officer knew, their could have been an accomplice standing there out of view.===

    So after he throws the pistol away you’re suggesting that the cop should kill the unarmed person because an imaginary 3rd person could have picked up the pistol and used it against the officer?

    Wouldn’t this ridiculous scenario suggest the officer should watch for or shoot at the imaginary person instead of murdering the unarmed person?

    I bet it using that strobe light impacted the officer’s ability to assess the situation. You guys would be better served trying to encourage a manslaughter charge instead of suggesting a premeditated murder of an unarmed child is justified.

    It hasn’t been noted enough that a 13 year old child may not have had much choice about being out at 2:30 AM if they were being threatened by gang members for not complying.

    It’s discouraging that you think like that, and it’s alarming because I’m very certain you’re a cop justifying a murder just because you’d rather support a murderer than serve our community.

  8. - Socially DIstant Watcher - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:15 am:

    When the LEO told the kid to drop the weapon, that involved a “split second decision” that the kid could do something to show compliance to the LEO; to deescalate the situation, to avoid the LEO’s need to shoot in order to prevent a greater tragedy.

    The kid complied. But rather than deescalate, the LEO then shot the kid. Call that a “split second decision” if you want to, but it ran counter to the decision made just prior.

    And it suggests that it doesn’t matter what the kid does, comply or not comply, the LEO is going to shoot regardless.

  9. - Rasselas - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:18 am:

    Last Bull Moose -

    OR - hit cop with hammer, drag him in your truck and have white 60-year-old skin - then you get to walk away alive.

  10. - SmallTownJill - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:26 am:

    Ooooh…Candy coming in hot! I am so trained to the ways of social media I wish I could “heart” or “love” her comment. All of that to say, that I agree, with much emotion.

  11. - cermak_rd - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:29 am:

    I fear that people will come to the obvious answer that if you are in that situation it is better to shoot and take as many of the “peace officers” out as you can because they are just going to shoot you anyway.

  12. - Notorious JMB - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:33 am:

    Can anyone explain what on earth a 13 year old is doing running around at 2:30 in the morning?

  13. - Excitable Boy - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:34 am:

    - For all the officer knew, their could have been an accomplice standing there out of view. -

    Well hell, if that’s the standard police might as well just shoot anyone they decide to apprehend. Do you ever think about what you’re saying?

  14. - Northsider - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:36 am:

    == Can anyone explain what on earth a 13 year old is doing running around at 2:30 in the morning? ==

    A valid question, but not an excuse for the police to kill someone complying with their instructions.

  15. - zatoichi - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:37 am:

    News stories last night on CNN had pictures implying a gun in Toledo’s hand at the fence then no gun in his hand as he turned around 8 tenths of a second later. Gun is supposedly found behind fence. That is fast reaction in a tense spot. Prints/lack of on gun may eventually tell actual story.

  16. - thunderspirit - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:39 am:

    == Can anyone explain what on earth a 13 year old is doing running around at 2:30 in the morning? ==

    == A valid question, but not an excuse for the police to kill someone complying with their instructions. ==

    It’s also basically victim-blaming.

    Running around at 2:30 in the morning shouldn’t be a death sentence.

  17. - Terry Salad - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:40 am:

    “Can anyone explain what on earth a 13 year old is doing running around at 2:30 in the morning?”

    Reuben Roman and The Latin Kings, perhaps?

    “It hasn’t been noted enough that a 13 year old child may not have had much choice about being out at 2:30 AM if they were being threatened by gang members for not complying.”

  18. - Anonymous - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:40 am:

    Rep. Gonzalez I will tell you what to do.

    Do not run around the neighborhood with a gun in your hands.

    Parents put in the time and effort so your children are not out on the street at 2:30 AM.

  19. - Terry Salad - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:41 am:

    Agree - A valid question, but not an excuse for the police to kill someone complying with their instructions.

  20. - SomeGuy - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:46 am:

    ===He seems to forget that Adam ran away from the officer at 2:30 in the morning after shooting his pistol. Rather than dropping it during the chase, he tossed the gun away during a break in the fence at the last possible moment. For all the officer knew, their could have been an accomplice standing there out of view. ===

    What part of that is a capitol offense? What gives the officer the power of judge, jury and executioner. Speculating on what could have happened if he hadn’t run is useless, the cop could have shot him then or it could have ended differently.

    What we DO know is that the kid complied and got shot anyway. There is no justification for that. Maybe the cop should claim he thought he grabbed his taser.

  21. - Thomas Paine’s common sense - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:48 am:

    The video shows the kid had a gun in his hand and disposed of it as he lifted his hands. It’s tragic, but if you change the race of the officer and the kid, I don’t think the outcome changes.

  22. - low level - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:52 am:

    Here’s what you do: Tell 21 year olds to stop banging with 13 year olds at 2:30am. Might help if parents kept their teens indoors as well.

    Was the officer wrong in opening fire? Perhaps. It’s a debatable point. What shouldn’t be at issue is the fact that he’d still be alive had he not been used by older gang bangers.

  23. - Rush Street - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:58 am:

    Can we mobilize the CPS and CTU to give a full day of instruction on what to do when being confronted by the police?

    1. Don’t run.
    2. If an officer tells you to stop, do so immediately.
    3. If you are holding a weapon, and asked to “drop it”. Do so slowly and in front of you, not behind your back.
    4. If you see an action going on by police, get out your cell phone and film it.

    I’m asking naively, but I’m wondering how many of the police shootings in Chicago would have occurred if every student was taught this?

  24. - Jocko - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 11:59 am:

    ==It’s discouraging that you think like that==

    There’s a lot of daylight between Adam Toledo and Laquan McDonald (or Philando Castile).

  25. - Ed Equity - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:00 pm:

    This is tragic and extremely sad. He was a child. That said, we are asking cops to manage violence that is on par to wars we fight oversees. Name a war where there is not collateral damage. We don’t want it, we need to make sure soldiers don’t intentionally murder innocent victims, but at the same time good officers will continue to make mistakes, there will be friendly fire, because it is a war. The war is not the responsibility of the police. There are many more factors at play than just the cops. Social media and edited clips will never convey that and none of us are willing to try to be diplomats to both sides. Instead, the majority of us will go for the simple binary finger pointing talking points. Chicago and its citizens as a result are in for more, not less of this in the years to come.

  26. - Tom - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:01 pm:

    I sure would not want to be a police officer these days. It seems to be it was an accident with life consequences. Prayers all around.

  27. - WestBurbs - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:05 pm:

    Agree that this is not murder but may be manslaughter if cops bad decision is deemed reckless. But still a close call - my view of video is that gun was in hand right before Toledo began to turn and raise hands. The fraction of a second between gun in hand and gun not in hand is the difference to me - gun in hand = justified; gun not in hand = not justified. Question is was cop reckless when he made the wrong decision. Despite the heated rhetoric, I don’t think anybody watching the entire video can reasonably think the cop wanted to kill an unarmed suspect.

  28. - Lucky Pierre - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:12 pm:

    Why limit it to teachers telling kids to listen to Police?

    Have you ever heard a prominent Political leader remind citizens that almost all of these shootings and deaths by police happen when the suspect is resisting arrest?

  29. - Rich Miller - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:16 pm:

    ===when the suspect is resisting arrest? ===

    Suspects are not necessarily guilty. And resisting arrest is not a capital crime. And even if it was, Illinois has outlawed the death penalty.

  30. - The Failing New York Times - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:18 pm:

    ==Can anyone explain what on earth a 13 year old is doing running around at 2:30 in the morning?==

    White people will bend over backwards to find a justification for the killing of Black and brown people, even children. How many white men have been apprehended alive after shooting up schools, churches, theaters, etc.? I mean Dylan Roof even got Burger King after he killed 9 people in cold blood while they prayed.

  31. - Arsenal - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:18 pm:

    ==Do not run around the neighborhood with a gun in your hands.==

    I’m pretty familiar with the Illinois criminal code and can tell you for sure that this is not a capital offense.

    And even if it was, there’s supposed to be a whole thing with a jury of your peers.

  32. - Boone's is Back - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:27 pm:

    Nice to see that these comments are as well reasoned and nuanced as Representative Gonzalez’s. /s

    What a sorry state and city we live in.

  33. - Rich Miller - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:32 pm:

    ===these comments are as well reasoned and nuanced===

    And instead of offering up your own well reasoned and nuanced position, you attack others. Don’t do that here.

  34. - Boone's is Back - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:35 pm:

    I don’t really see a lot of good to come from that Rich. I get enough of it on faceboook. It doesn’t really seem like anyone these days is truly concerned with solutions. (The representative included). Everyone just wants to scream about their certain opinion and that was the point that I was trying to make.

  35. - Demoralized - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:39 pm:

    ==when the suspect is resisting arrest==

    First of all, that’s not necessarily true. Second, resisting arrest doesn’t justify shooting. There are non-lethal methods to control a suspect.

    Who knew you could be wrong about so many things.

  36. - Lurker - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:39 pm:

    The order of people in the wrong is a 21 year old, a 13 year old and then the cop. I feel bad for the whole situation but people shooting guns at 2:30 will have an ending like this too often.

  37. - Payback - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:42 pm:

    I could not finish watching the video, it was sickening. If you want to know how police can kill without consequences, look at the comments here from “Jocko” the cop and “CM.” In Chicago we have police apologists that still defend Jon Burge, and in small sundowns towns we have scared little people like CM who think that police exist to shield them from everyone they are afraid of.

    Don’t think these police murders only occur in the big city either: “Shane D. Cataline, 30, of Toledo, Ohio, died of multiple gunshot wounds after Illinois State Conservation Police Officer Steven Francisko fired five shots at Mr. Cataline’s van during a Nov. 22, 2013, traffic stop outside Rock Falls. The officer later was cleared of all wrongdoing and, in January 2014, the shooting was deemed justified by Whiteside County State’s Attorney Trish Joyce.”

    Police criminals cannot exist without support or silence from the community, there must be cover from prosecutors and judges.

  38. - Nick Name - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:42 pm:

    Only in America…

    - Can coverage of the murder trial of a cop who strangled a black man to death in broad daylight

    - Be interrupted by coverage of a cop who - ten miles from where that trial is underway - murdered an unarmed black man because she “thought” she was holding her taser

    - Which is interrupted by coverage of the murder-by-cop of a 13-year-old boy in Chicago

    - Which is interrupted by coverage of yet another mass shooting, where a gunman killed 8 before taking his own life.

  39. - Anon E Moose - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:43 pm:

    Why did a 13 year old have a gun at 2:30am? Focus on the disease not the symptom.

  40. - Give Us Barabbas - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:43 pm:

    I can blame a lot of things but mostly I blame police training and the promotion of an aggressive “us or them” mentality that assumes literally every encounter is going to be a fast-draw Hogan’s alley competition. There’s supposed to be a spectrum of response and in these recent incidents we keep seeing officers assuming the worst and going immediately to the final step, right from the jump.

    This is learned and trained and reinforced behavior.

    I don’t want to hear the excuse that “the cop just wants to come home safe every night”. That is no justification and if you’re that afraid of the street you frankly should get into another line of work.

    Likewise suggestions we should alter our conduct to make a cop’s job “easier” is a non- starter. We already live by clear conduct rules that should protect us in daily interaction on the street. What you’re asking is for everyone to act like police are unreliable, capricious, randomly homicidal forces of chaos, not order. If that’s what they are, fire and replace them, don’t force the public to just bear it and allow it.

    And stop the “warrior” training mindset. It’s for combat soldiers, not civilian law enforcement.

  41. - Grandson of Man - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 12:43 pm:

    This is very chilling, the idea that police can order people to cooperate and shoot them while they are complying. That ain’t freedom and liberty.

  42. - Tonia - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:02 pm:

    ===Can anyone explain what on earth a 13 year old is doing running around at 2:30 in the morning?===
    He’s being naughty.
    So? Shoot him?

  43. - Candy Dogood - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:03 pm:

    ===This is learned and trained and reinforced behavior.===

    Last century we established a precedent that such things were not an excuse to participate in a crime.

    This officer murdered a 13 year old child. We cannot pretend that murder is the result of training and reinforcement. Those things do not help. We must hold the murderers accountable and the extent to which they were trained to murder and thought it was okay to murder is a conversation that can be had during their sentencing hearing.

    Change how qualified immunity is applied and start making officers accountable for their murders. If this causes people to leave the force — good. We didn’t need those wanton or would be killers on the payroll.

  44. - What's in a name? - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:03 pm:

    Nothing good comes from being 13 on the streets at 2:30AM holding a gun. A lot of bad decisions lead to this tragedy. This kid was failed by a lot of people. I think stating that the kid was complying with orders from the police is a vast oversimplification of the situation. he certainly wasn’t complying with orders when he ran away. He wasn’t complying with the order to drop the gun when he threw it behind the fence. I wish the cop hadn’t shot him but we are asking a lot of human beings to make these decisions. This is no doubt tragic but isn’t on a level of Lequan McDonald by any stretch.

  45. - Original Rambler - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:04 pm:

    I think the comments are nicely restrained so far. Good job.

    I am not law enforcement but it seems to me from the PO’s perspective, he sees a hand with a gun in it that disappears behind a fence. Then the body starts to turn to face the PO. From the PO’s perspective, the hand is obstructed by the fence as the victim starts to raise his arm to presumably follow the PO’s instructions. But the PO cannot know that the gun has been discarded as this is occurring. Given the totality of the video evidence, I think it will be very difficult to criminally charge the PO, and even disciplinary charges will be difficult to prove.

    I personally think Ruben Roman is the proximate cause of Adam Toledo’s death. I hope Kim Foxx has her staff working overtime to find a way to charge him with felony murder or find some way to hold him accountable. Lastly, I echo others here who describe this as a tragedy and hope that the CPD can use this in its use of force training going forward.

  46. - Moira - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:12 pm:

    When I was a 14-year-old white girl in central Illinois, I was sneaking out in the middle of the night with my friends to go do illegal things. I am willing to bet a lot of the folks blaming this kid and his family would not have had the same reaction if my teenage rebellion had ended in my death at the hands of law enforcement.

    White kids break the rules/law all the time, and it just becomes our “glory days” stories when we grow up. We were generally more afraid of our parents than the police. More often than not if we got caught, the police just called our folks to pick us up and deal with us. It never even crossed our minds to consider that we could be in danger because we weren’t.

    P.S. My parents were good, hands-on parents, but if kids want to do something (or possibly in this case are being pressured to do something) they will find a way.

  47. - Rush Street - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:22 pm:

    I think it’s telling that the officer yelled, “Drop it”. He was clearly aware the young man had a gun. So it wasn’t an “unarmed” individual that he thought he was facing. In the span of two seconds he had to make a decision to act against an individual who was one of two individuals who had discharged a gun, and was running away while carrying a gun.

  48. - Dotnonymous - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:30 pm:

    Would we know about this wrongful death…minus the body camera?

    I doubt it.

    Every officer who carries a firearm should also carry a bodycam.

  49. - Candy Dogood - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:37 pm:

    ===I personally think Ruben Roman is the proximate cause of Adam Toledo’s death.===

    It’s a shame that the police officer murdered Adam Toledo instead of having a meaningful intervention that could have improved his life.

    Protecting children who are being targeted and extorted by gangs to help them under threats of violence against them and their families is important, but one does not protect children from the Ruben Roman’s of the world by murdering them.

    Adam Toledo can be the victim of more than one person, but only the person who shot a scared child as he stood unarmed with his hands up is his killer.

  50. - Juvenal - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:40 pm:

    A police officer shot an unarmed 13 year old kid.

    There’s zero evidence the kid ever fired the gun.

    We were told over-and-over there was an “armed confrontation”, but that’s not what I saw.

    I saw a terrified kid running for his life, the irony is if he had kept running he might still be alive, it was only when he turned to show the officer his hands were empty that he was shot.

  51. - John - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:50 pm:

    - Moira - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 1:12 pm:

    Cops pull guns on white people too. I had a cop pull a gun on me in a traffic stop after working all day and being in school all evening because he questioned if I was drinking which I wasn’t. I have had other unfair interactions with police and have always cooperated. I could write a book about unfair situations with police between friends of mine if all races.

  52. - Retired and Still in Illinois - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 2:12 pm:

    As a law enforcement officer for almost thirty years I have had occasions to be involved in use of force investigation. My agency was called numerous times to investigate the use of force by other LE agencies. I personally supervised dozens of use of force death investigations. I also interacted with the media on these cases and tried to explain the investigative process, these are some of the things I shared. How COPA does investigations may differ in some ways.

    The investigation tried to determine the actions of all involved. As an investigator I did not determine if the actions of police were justified, I left that decision up to prosecutors. Some prosecutors determined that while others presented to a grand jury. The determination was based upon state statutes and applicable case law. Case law can lead to a lot of confusion and anger for many. The 1989 Supreme Court case Graham vs Connor established the “Objective Resonableness” standard. This decision held that the reasonableness of an officer’s use of force should be be based upon the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than the 20/20 vision of hindsight. In the current incident, wether you agree or not with the court ruling, I suspect most reasonable officers would belly they could have used deadly force. The courts have also held in rulings that police do not have to allow themselves to be injured before they use force to protect themselves. In this case, it appears the person had a gun in his hand and dropped it has he raised his arms. We can only speculate on what the officer saw before he shot. There maybe other factors the public does not yet know that could impact the determination of whether criminal charges are issued.

    And to clarify something that may be misunderstood about Qualified Immunity. It deals with civil actions against government employees, not just police. A long explanation boiled down, as long as a govt employee is performing their job within their scope of employment they can’t be sued personally. If outside scope of employment (ie dui while working) the employee can be personally liable, as well as the employer for allowing it. QI has no bearing on criminal charges

    I can’t say all officers but all that I encountered that used deadly force were devastated by the event. The taking of a life was not celebrated or talked about with glee. Most described as the worst day of their life. Many wanted to express their grief to the family but were denied by bosses, prosecutors, attorneys, etc.

    Finally, I do not believe all use of force is justified, the current trial in MN is prime example. I signed more than a few complaints for arrest warrants on officers who committed crimes. I took no pleasure in that, it made be embarrassed and ashamed they tarnished my profession.

    My sympathy and prayers for the families involved in these tragedies and continued prayers that the violence in this country will subside.

  53. - Enviro - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 2:21 pm:

    “It’s abundantly clear that our entire system failed Adam.”

    Our entire system failed Adam long before he was shot on March 29 at 2:38 A.M. We need good solutions to help our young people, not finger pointing and blaming our law enforcement officers. Lets begin with education and job training.

  54. - Cool Papa Bell - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 2:22 pm:

    Adam made a split second decision and tossed the gun he was carrying and then decided to turn and show his hands…

    The cop made a split second decision too. He shot and killed Adam.

    The idea might be keep running…

    Oh wait… Walter Scott did and he was shot and killed anyway.

  55. - Fly like an eagle - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 2:25 pm:

    == I think it’s telling that the officer yelled, “Drop it”==
    Drop it and get shot anyway?
    == In the span of two seconds he had to make a decision to act against an individual==
    Nope. Toledo had his hands up facing Stillman. Stillman had all the seconds he wanted to take to approach Toledo.

  56. - Moira - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 2:43 pm:


    I can only speak to my personal experience. I have had some unfair run-ins with police, too. But I am still alive after those unfair run-ins. I have also known police officers personally who were fair, good people.

    I am not saying police are never unfair to white people. My point is that being a kid from where I am from with the skin color I have, means that I (and a lot of the kids who grew up in similar circumstances) were able to make some stupid mistakes with little risk of them being life-ending, at least at the hands of police.

    Adam didn’t have that luxury. And it seems a lot of people want to discuss what behavior Black and Latino kids might be up to as a justification for diminishing their right to life without acknowledging that white kids break the law too and rarely pay for it with their lives.

  57. - Telly - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 3:31 pm:

    == There’s a lot of daylight between Adam Toledo and Laquan McDonald ==

    Yes. Much different. All the way up to the cop immediately trying to revive Toledo — which says a lot about the differences between this cop (who made a horrible mistake) and the cop who let the life bleed out of Laquan without so much a second thought.

  58. - Old Lobster - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 3:45 pm:

    What the hell are we supposed to do?
    How about we start with some parenting? 13 year old. Out at 2:30 in the morning. Mom sure knew where to find a lawyer, though.

  59. - Original Rambler - Friday, Apr 16, 21 @ 4:17 pm:

    CD, I think your reference to the PO as the killer is accurate. I think saying he murdered Toledo is inaccurate as that will be the province of a judge or jury if charges are filed. You described Toledo as scared; I do not know what you base that on. I do not think the PO is required to make that determination before acting. I still think Roman is the person who set in motion the events that led to Toledo’s death and would like to see him held accountable criminally.

    Retired, thank you for your post.

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