56 Comments - The Science - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:34 am: So climate change causes more tornadoes? Gov. Talking Points should consult the science before saying we need building code changes because of climate change. - Demoralized - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:35 am: Amazon isn’t handling this tragedy well at all. Their public relations people should be fired. All they needed to say right now is that this is a tragic loss, we mourn for our employees and their families, we want our employees to be safe and that we will look into the failures that happened in this warehouse and we are looking into ways we can make our warehouses safer to deal with storms such as these. - Cool Papa Bell - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:35 am: I think we can see clearly that these buildings aren’t going to stand up to a tornado. Nantel said the building was 1.2 million square feet. Sad that two or three fortified rooms of a few hundred square feet weren’t included in the plans to save peoples lives in the event of a natural disaster. Tough to shelter in place, in a building that isn’t designed to be sheltered in. - Demoralized - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:36 am: ==So climate change causes more tornadoes?== We know that climate change is affecting the weather in negative ways, including the severity of weather. Unless you’re a climate change denier, this isn’t new news. - Ron Burgundy - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:38 am: Explains why and how these centers go up so quickly. I don’t think they need to have the whole building withstand an EF-3 or higher, but certainly a small portion should have to for employee and customer safety. In the Midwest, designing to an EF-1 standard for shelters isn’t good enough. However, it doesn’t do any good to have a reinforced shelter in these centers if the rest of them fall on you. - Sangamo Girl - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:39 am: It’s really complex. Illinois does not have a state-wide building code. Public Health owns the plumbing code, Fire Marshall owns part of the life/safety code, Board of Ed. owns part of the school construction code, lots of other little pieces are with other agencies, and the rest is left to units of local government. - Jocko - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:40 am: ==designated shelter in place is an interior section of the warehouse not a room== How can this be? OSHA clearly stipulates going to an interior room with no windows. - Anyone Remember - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:45 am: Since St. Louis is on the far northern edge of the New Madrid Quake Zone, are these buildings earthquake resistant? - Dave - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:49 am: Most new industrial/warehouse construction use the 2018 IBC as a guide: The 2018 international Building Code requires storm shelters capable of withstanding winds up to 250mph, but this is only required for critical emergency operations facilities–911 call centers, fire/rescue/ambulance/police stations. Most walls are required to withstand 110m mph winds. https://www.fema.gov/sites/default/files/2020-07/2018-ibc-compliation-wind-resistant-provisions.pdf - Roadrager - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:49 am: ==Amazon isn’t handling this tragedy well at all. Their public relations people should be fired.== Amazon had a week where several employees were killed on its watch and multiple major services and companies nationwide suffered hours-long outages and losses because of mysterious system failures. There was a time where, if for self-preservation only, the company would get out ahead of this and start promoting immediate actions to do better and compensate victims’ families. They would not want to attract the eyes of Congress and the possibilities of regulation or a Bell-style breakup. Those days are gone. Amazon can trot out thoughts and prayers and deny responsibility because they know they are too big to ever be held accountable. Meanwhile, the big Amazon story for the national press over the weekend was Michael Strahan taking a ride on Jeff Bezos’ not-quite-space rocket. - Jibba - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 11:55 am: ===Six that died in Edwardsville, Illinois Amazon warehouse were not in the designated shelter === I gather that the shelter was not any specifically hardened location or room and was constructed just like the rest of the building. Therefore, it is simply good luck that so many employees were in the part of the building that was not directly hit and did not collapse, not from any apparent intrinsic value of the “shelter” other than being “interior.” BTW, you don’t need to bring climate change into the situation to know that a hardened shelter might be needed in a state that has regular tornadoes. - Lurker - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:00 pm: I sure thought Amazon was not saying the right things and then comes the governor to one up them. Instead of mourning the tragedy of lives lost, he turns it into a political statement on climate change? This feels like when Katrina hit New Orleans and the 700 club said it’s because they are sinners. - Wensicia - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:03 pm: Amazon: The people who died were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Too bad, so sad. But, there wasn’t a “right” place. I imagine multiple lawsuits will be forthcoming. - Mason born - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:05 pm: Just an observation. Drove through the area this morning the storm a,e from the west somehow managed to pass over 4-6 similar warehouses to hot this one. The whole area is thick with these types of warehouses. They aren’t going to build these things to withstand a tornado but not hardening the restrooms or other shelters seems to be a rather large flaw to be addressed. This warehouse opended in 2016 so it should be fairly current with code. - Donnie Elgin - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:07 pm: “Sad that two or three fortified rooms of a few hundred square feet weren’t included in the plans to save peoples lives in the event of a natural disaster” Ask the Local or County Code enforcement agency. Buildings are built to those requirements. - Jibba - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:09 pm: ====This feels like when Katrina hit New Orleans and the 700 club said it’s because they are sinners.=== Not to me. It is nonsense to attribute weather to a vengeful deity, but weather is measurably getting more intense. Tornadoes have increased in Illinois and some other states, but decreased in others. So while not proven yet, increased tornadoes are certainly plausible (unlike your 700 Club). Here’s a measured look, from National Geographic: “Some types of extreme weather (e.g. Rainfall and extreme heat) can be directly attributed global warming. Other types of extreme weather, such as Tornadoes, are also exhibiting changes which may be linked to climate change, but scientific understanding isn’t detailed enough to project direction and magnitude of future change.” It goes on to talk about the difficulty in modeling tiny weather phenomena like tornadoes. - NonAFSCMEStateEmployeeFromChatham - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:20 pm: I don’t like to shop online (unless I have no other choice–but my attitude is that “if it’s not at the store then it doesn’t exist”), so I only can count on one hand the number of times I’ve bought something via Amazon in the past 15 years. But from now on I will make sure to never buy anything from Amazon ever again. I also hope Amazon and Bezos get hit with many lawsuits over this disaster. - G'Kar - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:23 pm: Those complaining that Pritzker shouldn’t be bringing up climate change sound just like those who complain we shouldn’t bring up gun control after a mass shooting. - MisterJayEm - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:31 pm: “And so if we need to strengthen those codes because of climate change, we should go do that.” He said that if climate change is part of the problem, then we should address it. Big deal. Climate change deniers can certainly get their backs up over nothing. – MrJM - Candy Dogood - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:32 pm: ===is designed to withstand winds of at least 110 mph=== There are children’s tree forts that would perform better. - Actual Red - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:33 pm: Amazon has never demonstrated anything but complete contempt for the human dignity of its employees. Why would we expect anything different from them in this situation? - Sue - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:37 pm: This Amazon controversy is just stupid. Don’t hear similar accusations occurring in KY. Storms were tragic but the Amazon structure was relatively new and built in accordance with local building codes. But why should anyone be surprised that people here want to beat up on Amazon - mrp - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 12:56 pm: ==This feels like when Katrina hit New Orleans and the 700 club said it’s because they are sinners.== No, it doesn’t. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:02 pm: === So climate change causes more tornadoes? Gov. Talking Points should consult the science before saying we need building code changes because of climate change.=== So when east coast states upgraded housing codes after hurricanes strengthened… is what…? This is ridiculously ignorant. ===This feels like when Katrina hit New Orleans and the 700 club said it’s because they are sinners.=== Kinda-sorta… the vibe at least here with folks seems to be “tornadoes happen, get over it”… and that might even be more callous, but the crazy in-law uncle, a new expert on tornadoes and climate change feels looking deeper at things or better building codes like out east for hurricanes is a waste. - Only In Illinois - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:06 pm: The number of Tornadoes rsted F1 or greater has not increased since 1950. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:07 pm: === The number of Tornadoes=== Cite, please. - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:14 pm: From a report cited by the National Weather Service ===The period analyzed in this study was from 1979 to 2017. A significant upward trend in tornado frequency was found in portions of the Southeast, Midwest, and Northeast. Both tornado reports and tornado environments indicate an increasing trend in portions of Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, Tennessee, and Kentucky. It should be kept in mind that STP is designed to evaluate environments favorable for large storms typical of the Great Plains, and not necessarily small spin-ups that we see in regions farther east. Unfortunately, increases in tornado frequency in the American South juxtapose with a population that is especially vulnerable to tornadoes. The Southeast already represents a maximum in the occurrence of tornado casualties.=== “Link?” shorturl.at/ejIRS - Lurker - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:22 pm: Not a climate denier. Just hate peoples that take opportunity of tragedy. And for OW … US tornadoes: Is climate change to blame? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/59641376 - Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:27 pm: - Lurker - Great, thanks. - Honeybear - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:34 pm: Wait so the shelter in place with the managers it seems was the nearest bathroom. Amazon is saying it was an interior space on the other side of the building. Then why did managers say go to the bathrooms? If the plan had been executed properly by management then all should have been saved. Yup, Amazon is going to get clobbered by this. Here’s the other thing that adds up. Amazons clear lack of knowledge in who was in the building at the time. They didn’t know how many they had in the building till hours later. I know this because of my coworkers sister was a paramedic on scene that night. Amazon had no idea at the time who was working. Now correct me if I’m wrong but when we do tornado drills for the state. Attendance of the group is the first thing management does when they get to their designated spot. That way they know who could be still out there. My thinking is that nobody was in charge of the loading bay area or that the supervisor of that area did not do their duty in getting their people to the interior of the building. There was simply the word to go to the restroom which may have come from a coworker, ( a common sense thing, room with no windows ). Anyway you put it, Management failed to get all workers to the safe area. It was the responsibility of management to train the managers as to the safety procedures. There was ample time to take shelter. Everyone in Madison county who had a cell phone got the “Wake the Dead” Tornado Warning. Management Failed - Soccermom - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:34 pm: When was the last time they held a severe weather drill in that warehouse? - Lurker - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:51 pm: Well said honeybear - Ridgelander - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 1:52 pm: “While the exact link between climate change and tornadoes remains uncertain, higher temperatures could add fuel to these violent disasters.” “A lot of people are waking up today and seeing this damage and saying, ‘Is this the new normal?’ ” said Victor Gensini, a meteorology professor at Northern Illinois University, adding that key questions still remain when it comes to tornadoes because so many factors come into play. “It’ll be some time before we can say for certain what kind of role climate change played in an event like yesterday.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/12/11/tornadoes-climate-change/?%20environment_5 - Huh? - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 2:05 pm: I used to work for a company that started every meeting with a moment for safety. The idea was to give visitors information about where evacuation routes and rally locations were located. Adding a sentence about emergency shelter locations seems to be a good idea. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 2:23 pm: ===Don’t hear similar accusations occurring in KY=== I dunno, maybe because somebody’s not lying or pointing fingers at dead people? - Give Us Barabbas - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 2:36 pm: Seems to me the insurance companies could help fix this faster than legislation by tying below standards safety rooms to higher rates. - Jocko - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 2:42 pm: ==But there was a windowless “take shelter” area on the north side of the building that is designated as a safety section== I suspect they could’ve saved lives and lawsuit money by installing steel trusses in the bathrooms rather than telling employees to huddle in a (lucky) corner. - Honeybear - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 2:45 pm: “This Amazon controversy is just stupid.” I don’t feel like 6 people dying is stupid. “Storms were tragic but the Amazon structure was relatively new and built in accordance with local building codes.” Yes, it was new. 11 inch concrete walls. Yet that f3 opened it up like a can of sardines. And six people died. Maybe I’m a bit biased because those folks are from my county. But six people dying who didn’t have too is a problem. It’s not just because it’s Amazon. Far more died in Kentucky at their plant. In both cases Management Failed to Protect Workers I fail to understand how workers ( which are also husbands, wives, fathers, mothers, sons and daughters and friends) dying is stupid. - Demoralized - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:17 pm: ==Yet that f3 opened it up like a can of sardines== Tornadoes tend to do that. You can’t prevent a tornado from ripping a building apart. If that’s your standard you’re shooting for the wrong standard. ==But six people dying who didn’t have too == We don’t know whether those deaths could have been prevented until the investigation is done. ==In both cases Management Failed to Protect Workers== You’re honestly saying that the deaths at the plan in Kentucky were due to managements failures? C’mon. That plant took a direct hit by a tornado. Those of you saying any death was a management failure are just being ridiculous. We need to figure out what happened and figure out if there is a way to fix it and prevent it from happening again. - joe - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:29 pm: Y’All are talking about the night-shift Management at a local (Amazon) warehouse as if they are some kind of omniscient band united in a malevolent conspiracy to kill their neighbors and friends. - As always... - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:30 pm: Lots of people make pronouncements in the days after a tragedy. Let’s let the facts come out. 1. We have building codes. Was Amazon’s building built to code? 2) Not sure if building codes also require an internal hardened shelter. If they do, did this warehouse have one and were workers properly directed to it? 3) How long before the storms did management know about them - was their tine to get people to safety outside the facility? I doubt it but maybe. As to the Governor’s point I read it as him saying “climate change is leading to more extreme weather events - seems like maybe we should look at making our building codes tougher to potentially avoid future loss of life.” That’s an eminently reasonable question to ask. - Rich Miller - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:30 pm: ===as if they are some kind of omniscient band=== Where do you see this? We’ve got a corporate flak saying something that has been repeatedly contradicted by actual survivors. - Honeybear - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:32 pm: Look Demo, I grew up in Oklahoma. I know first hand that tornado safety in the workplace is well established. We don’t need to figure out a way to prevent it from happening again. We already know that. We’ve known how to prevent workplace deaths from a tornado for a long time. Let’s look at what we know right now. 1) Amazon did not know who was in the building and had not accounted for their workers getting to safety. Management Fail 2) The command to go to the bathroom was done by word of mouth, not by facility alarm or PA system. Thus workers went to an assumed safe zone (bathroom) and not the approved zone. ( which not being a windowless room in a warehouse filled with possible projectiles doesn’t sound very safe ) Management Fail 3)Workers didn’t seem to think they were supposed to have their phones out during work. Thus they were confused about what was actually happening. Thus they lost precious minutes to get to safety. Management Fail I honestly don’t trust any investigation which can be influenced by Amazon. We already have 3 strong points that show that Management failed to protect their workers. This is why we have unions. just sayin - As always... - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:33 pm: On the other hand, if they failed in any of their legal duties - they will be and should be in big trouble. - As always... - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:34 pm: The important thing is a thorough investigation not tainted by this being a massive company and the desire of state government to see more warehouses in IL. - Dotnonymous - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:52 pm: Work…Obey…Consume…Reproduce…Repeat. - Honeybear - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 3:58 pm: Here Demoralized what do you have to say about this? https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/dec/14/kentucky-tornado-candle-factory-workers-managers-refused-leave - Demoralized - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 4:12 pm: I’m not going to argue anymore with you @Honeybear. Your suggestion that this is these deaths are all the result of management failures is just ridiculous. They may or may not be PARTIALLY due to management failures. But, again, you can’t prevent a tornado from killing someone. You can try your hardest. But sometimes your hardest isn’t good enough. Again, we’ll have to wait and see what happens. Amazon’s “explanations” have been crappy to date. I don’t know enough about the Kentucky plant other than I also saw the story about them not being able to go home. I don’t know about where you work but where I work we specifically keep people from leaving if we know bad weather is imminent. - Chicago 20 - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 4:14 pm: Reinforced areas in Amazon warehouses to protect their workers cost money. This billionaire doesn’t want to spend money to protect workers. His focus is elsewhere. - cermak_rd - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 4:42 pm: Even if the state building code does not require it (reinforcement of refuge zones) the fact that many of us work in buildings that have it indicates some laissez faire attitudes on the part of that warehouse towards its workers that is different from other employers that have made that investment in their people? At this point in time, I think there is enough evidence to make a moral judgement, if not a legal one. - MyTwoCents - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 4:51 pm: Demoralized, you must have missed this post from yesterday: https://capitolfax.com/2021/12/13/unanswered-questions-about-amazons-worker-protections-in-edwardsville/ Yes, it is possible to prevent people from dying. An F4 leveled a factory and there were 0 fatalities among the 150 employees. If buildings are properly constructed and managers are properly trained then tornado deaths are preventable. Roanoke provided that. - Anon221 - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 5:44 pm: According to a Tweet from the National Weather Service, the Tornado Warning was in effect at 8:06 pm for the Edwardsville area. But Amazon management onsite didn’t start having employees take shelter until 8:16 pm according to numerous reports in the media. And Amazon spokes people have been claiming the tornado formed up in their parking lot- implying they had little time to get people to a safe zone. Timelines are going to matter in the investigation. Work safety plans and training, including drills, are going to matter in the investigation. Accountability for personnel either full-time or contracted is going to matter in the investigation. Right now it appears that Amazon management had 10 additional minutes to get people to safer areas than was used. That extra 10 minutes might have saved more lives even with the devastating it of an EF3 on a non-hardened building. It would be informative to know what actions were taken by Amazon management at the fulfillment center nearby. The same or different? https://twitter.com/NWSStLouis/status/1469488781594034177?s=20 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/12/technology/amazon-tornado-edwardsville.html - Anon221 - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 5:53 pm: From OSHA on Tornado Preparedness and Response- https://www.osha.gov/tornado/preparedness - Honeybear - Tuesday, Dec 14, 21 @ 6:00 pm: Ruh roh https://m.riverbender.com/articles/details.cfm?id=55387&fbcl - Chicago 20 - Wednesday, Dec 15, 21 @ 8:48 am: Meanwhile in Kentucky. Factory workers threatened with firing if they left before tornado, employees say https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna8581 - TallAndWide - Wednesday, Dec 15, 21 @ 11:21 am: ==I gather that the shelter was not any specifically hardened location or room and was constructed just like the rest of the building. Therefore, it is simply good luck that so many employees were in the part of the building that was not directly hit and did not collapse, not from any apparent intrinsic value of the “shelter” other than being “interior.”== Jibba That’s incorrect. Warehouses and large footprint facilities like big box stores and similar are designed with reinforced and rigidized sections that serve as shelter areas. These are typically in a specific corner of the building where two exterior walls meet, and not in closed off rooms (like a restroom) as closed off rooms are floating rooms in large footprint-buildings. It’s not a stroke of good luck that the shelter area is the only part of the building that wasn’t pulverized, it’s design. The failure was not one of construction, but one of education and instruction. If managers sent employees to bathrooms to shelter, they actually sent them to a location that is more dangerous than an open area. Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.