* Sun-Times…
Hoping to curb rising crime on Chicago expressways, Gov. J.B. Pritzker and the director of Illinois State Police held a news conference Monday to spotlight arrests that have occurred since patrols were increased and more surveillance cameras were installed.
But as they spoke, a person was shot on the Dan Ryan Expressway at Canalport near downtown — the 14th person shot on an expressway in Cook County this year. No arrests were reported.
The governor and State Police Director Brendan Kelly insisted their efforts since last fall have made expressways less attractive for committing crime. They said 20 people were charged with violent crimes after more troopers were deployed in October and nearly 100 cameras were placed on the Dan Ryan.
“Anyone even thinking of committing violent crimes on our expressways ought to be on notice that they are more likely today than ever before to get caught,” Pritzker said. “If we want to reduce crime, we have to solve crime.”
Neither he nor State Police Director Brendan Kelly provided examples of crimes being solved by the 99 new license plate reading cameras on the Dan Ryan. State police said they installed them last year, and have plans to install 200 more on other expressways with $12.5 million in state funding.
So, are the license plate readers helping or no?
…Adding… Director Kelly at the press conference…
The installation of these ALPRs has already begun to aid the ISP with intelligence and evidence leading to arrests related to these expressway shootings and aggravated fleeing and eluding violations tied to aggravated vehicular hijackings and other violent crimes in nearby communities.
* Tribune…
As Democratic Gov. J.B. Pritzker tries to fend off Republican rivals who accuse him of being soft on crime, his office is announcing the arrests of about a dozen people in the last several months for crimes on Chicago-area expressways.
The rise in violent crime afflicting parts of the state has not spared the city’s expressways, which are patrolled by Illinois State Police. There were roughly 260 shootings on Chicago-area expressways in 2021, about double the number on those roadways the previous year, according to the state police. […]
“The crime scene itself is moving at 70, 80, 90 miles an hour down the expressway,” said Kelly, who was tapped by Pritzker in 2019 to lead the state police. “The evidence is more like a debris field than it is at a typical crime scene on a street corner or in a parking lot, wherever the case may be, within a home or within a business, it is spread out all over the place.”
“And then you have people literally driving through the crime scene repeatedly until law enforcement is able to get there and secure the scene,” Kelly said. “People that are the victims of these cases may not be able to identify what they saw. So, all that is moving very quickly.”
* Patch…
Monday’s announcement came after the Illinois State Police reported 273 expressway shootings in 2021. State Police officials recently released data on an interactive map that tracks expressway shootings back to 2019. Kelly said Monday that 24 homicides took place on the state’s expressways in 2021.
Pritzker has announced he will deploy more state troopers on local expressways and that more state police helicopters will monitor expressway activity from the air. Pritzker said that the charges against the 20 people are proof that the extra measures by police are working as officials look to crack down on “heinous shootings that spill over from neighborhoods and onto the expressway,” the governor said in a news release on Monday.
Kelly said in a news release that 99 license plate readers were recently installed on the Dan Ryan and said that police officials are working with the Illinois Department of Transportation to install another 200 license plate readers within the next year.
* ILGOP…
Illinois Republican Party Spokesman Joe Hackler released the following statement in response to Pritzker’s failed attempt to mislead Illinois voters on crime:
“JB Pritzker must accept responsibility for skyrocketing crime in this state. He signed the most pro-criminal, anti-police legislation in Illinois history. He sided with Kim Foxx. His Prisoner Review Board let out violent criminals early, including cop-killers. There’s simply no media stunt or campaign ad that can change the reality of crime in Illinois.”
* From the Richard Irvin campaign…
From the disastrous crime bill to letting child killers back into our communities, it’s clear that criminals know they will not be held accountable for their actions in JB Pritzker’s Illinois. Our families need and deserve a governor who will back our police and stand up to the criminals that are terrorizing our streets.
…Adding… DPI…
One week after Richard Irvin finally made himself available to reporters, Illinois voters are left with far more questions than answers. A closer look at Irvin’s background reveals he enjoyed a 15-year career as a criminal defense attorney where he made big money off keeping violent abusers, sex offenders, and gang members out of prison. As reported by multiple outlets, Irvin’s first law firm, the Law Office of Richard C. Irvin and Associates, brazenly advertised its services defending clients accused of domestic violence, violent felonies, and more. Irvin even advertised his five years as a prosecutor as the reason he can construct “effective defense strategies.”
“No wonder Richard Irvin would rather avoid tough questions and instead communicate through consultant-crafted videos: he’s not being honest about his record,” said Democratic Party of Illinois Deputy Director Jake Lewis. “Irvin would rather dodge reporters and hide from voters than explain why he ‘zealously defended’ the very criminals he purported to prosecute. Actions speak louder than words, and Richard Irvin’s 15-year career making big money off defending criminals says more than any tough-talking TV ad ever could.”
- H-W - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:23 am:
The ILGOP statement refers to skyrocketing crime rates. What do the data indicate? Skyrocketing implies the rates have increased dramatically. I would want to see time trend data before reaching that conclusion. For example, the number of Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed last year in America was low relative to time trends (61?), but we were led to believe there was a serious crisis.
Skyrocketing? I bet that is a false assessment. Show me the data, politicians.
- Steve - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:24 am:
People can yell about these sorts of crimes all they want. But, sadly shooting crimes will continue as long as there are judges and prosecutors that are tolerant of crime. JB Pritzker isn’t letting repeat felons out of bail to engage in shootings. Just a reminder: Kim Foxx won in a landslide without even having to debate her opponent .
- well... - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:27 am:
==The ILGOP statement refers to skyrocketing crime rates. What do the data indicate? Skyrocketing implies the rates have increased dramatically. I would want to see time trend data before reaching that conclusion. For example, the number of Law Enforcement Officers Feloniously Killed last year in America was low relative to time trends (61?), but we were led to believe there was a serious crisis.
Skyrocketing? I bet that is a false assessment. Show me the data, politicians.==
In 2019, there were 51 shootings reported on expressways in Illinois. In 2021 there were 310. Sounds like “skyrocketing” to me.
- NonAFSCMEStateEmployeeFromChatham - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:29 am:
==more surveillance cameras were installed.==
Question re: the license plate cameras. Are they better equipped at detecting speeders (or red light camera runners if they’re also installed at interchanges) than shooters?
- TheInvisibleMan - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:31 am:
Slightly related, these automatic license plate readers are currently being installed in more places than just expressways.
Many municipalities are working with their respective counties to put these ALPRs on local county roads as well. In Will County, New Lenox has had them for almost 5 years, and Crest Hill will be installing them this year. Lemont and Downers Grove have had them for a few years as well.
The state police seem to be the ones late to the party on this.
- Pundent - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:31 am:
When the GOP abandons ideas and policies scarring people is their usual tactic. That’s not to say that violent crime isn’t a problem. It is, nationally. And certainly criminals have become more brazen recently. But other than slogans like “back the blue” the GOP doesn’t seem to have a clue on how to prevent crime beyond punitive measures that have been proven ineffective over the decades.
The CPD is a well funded organization and yet their clearance rate on violent crime is terrible as is their history of liability settlements. So exactly what do Richard Irvin and the ILGOP plan on doing to solve the problem? I hear lots of words but nothing that comes close to an actual plan.
- JS Mill - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:34 am:
=Sounds like “skyrocketing” to me.=
Sounds like a “skyrocket” as in singular.
Overall data indicates that violent crime as a whole is down. That covers more than one type of offense.
- Amalia - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:39 am:
violent crime as a whole is down. but you have to look at the individual crimes to get a full picture of what is happening because for some crimes it is way up. to simply say violent crime as a whole is down is pretty tone deaf.
- Pundent - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:41 am:
=In 2019, there were 51 shootings reported on expressways in Illinois. In 2021 there were 310. Sounds like “skyrocketing” to me.=
Due in part to increased cameras in neighborhoods which have shifted some activities unmonitored and under-patrolled expressways. Hence the further investment in license plate readers and increased patrols.
- Real - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:42 am:
Funny. They want JB to focus on crime but Rauner never did anything on crime.
- TheInvisibleMan - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:45 am:
=== Rauner never did anything on crime. ===
That’s not a fair statement. Give the guy credit for what he did on crime.
Like defunding the violence interruption programs.
- Second Chance - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:48 am:
Rauner-like timing for JB.
- Southern - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:48 am:
A number of agencies and cities have been using plate readers for some time. They’re scary, if you ask me. I know of one city that has them installed on a couple of police vehicles. They just roam the streets day and night, scooping up data from license plates. The police are very secretive about the data collected — try submitting a FOIA for data from the readers. I suppose they’re a very effective crime-fighting tool. Installing a tracking collar on every human also would be an effective crime-fighting tool, I suppose. Between cell-phone pings, internet data, Ring doorbell cameras, businesses’ security cameras, credit/debit card data, we might as well have a tracking collar.
- Candy Dogood - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 9:51 am:
===So, are the license plate readers helping or no?===
This is a data problem. If there is a shooting at an approximate time they would need to grab all of the license plates to cover whatever range of time they need to cover at several cameras in the area. Since there’s usually not an accurate exact second the time was committed, pulling license plate data to see who was in the vicinity of where the crime occurred would create hundreds to thousands of suspects and this is without accounting for a stolen license plate which could make searching for make, model, color, etc, a moot point.
While it’s helpful to know the license plate of everyone on the road at the approximate time of the shooting, it is still creating a giant haystack of suspects that may not actually include the person who fired the weapon for a variety of factors. It’s irresponsible for these cameras to be presented as a magic bullet unless they have some kind of procedure that doesn’t involve a person spending days or weeks going through thousands of images to wind up with something that still isn’t sufficient for a conviction since the evidence used to identify the pool of thousands of suspects is circumstantial at best and even an attorney of poor quality would be likely to mount a successful defense if their client didn’t self incriminate.
- Benjamin - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:00 am:
Yes, violent crime is up in states run by Democrats like Illinois and Calfironia. But it’s also up in palces run by law-and-order conservatives like Texas and Montana. This crime surge–because it began in 2020, one might call it the Trump crime surge–is a nationwide problem, and has little to do with who occupies the governor’s mansion or runs the statehouse. Sure, the ILGOP can make hay of it in their ads, and Pritzker ought to make every effort to combat it. But any fair-minded observer should be grading the man on a curve.
- Candy Dogood - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:01 am:
It’s also very reasonable to expect that Director Kelly would be aware of the issues with creating a standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict someone for something that starts with completely circumstantial evidence and would be reliant on other circumstantial evidence, and I like to imagine that some judges would find it difficult to approve warrants for someone’s phone or other items or locations based off of “They were on the Dan Ryan expressway driving a white sedan during the 20 minute window around the estimate time the crime occurred.”
We can give them an A for effort, though and that kind of evidence can certainly be helpful if they’re able to identify the suspect through other means.
- JS Mill - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:05 am:
=as a whole is down is pretty tone deaf.=
No, it present a picture and context of violent crime as a whole. Especially when some people are trying constantly trying to sell fear as a political policy.
Talk about “tone”.
- Techie - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:08 am:
Some types of violent crime rose across the country during a time of high unemployment, when many people were out of work, were stressed by the pandemic, and possibly needed money? I am shocked! /s
As Benjamin at 10:00am noted, this doesn’t seem related to what any particular state did or didn’t do. Priztker’s policies didn’t drive up crime.
That said, it is incumbent on him to respond appropriately to curb crime and protect public safety.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:08 am:
== Funny. They want JB to focus on crime but Rauner never did anything on crime. ==
Funny as in how Democrats used Rauner’s wealth against him but all of a sudden when they had an even richer guy with no experience run for governor being a billionaire wasn’t a disqualifying attribute?
Just curious if that is funny as well?
- Donnie Elgin - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:10 am:
I guess to fight crime, every innocent motorists’ location must be subject to a surveillance scan. The ACLU and other groups have grave concerns.
https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-technology/location-tracking/automatic-license-plate-readers
- Pundent - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:11 am:
=to simply say violent crime as a whole is down is pretty tone deaf.=
Unless it’s a factual and accurate statement.
- Long year - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:11 am:
Everyone will yell and scream about crime, but when law enforcement actually does good work they don’t even get credit for that. Gov was right, you want to address crime you actually have to solve it and that’s what ISP is doing.
- H-W - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:19 am:
Again I ask, where is the data? Those who say crime is up need to provide data.
@well — What about 2020? 2015-2018? Selecting two data points is how politicians tell stories (and falsehoods). Where are the rest of the data, and why do you choose freeway shootings?
@ Amalia — Which crimes are up? If you suggest some are up, you need to tell us which are up, how much they have increased over time, and why your chosen crimes are more significant than the other crimes (since crime rates in America has been decreasing for many years).
@ Ben — You claim crime is up in some states. Do you have any data to support that claim? Any time trends? Which crimes are up, and which are down?
I ask these questions not to demean any of you. Rather, I ask them because if @we the people” want to seriously address crime, we need to know what we are talking about, what the full data tell us, etc.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:21 am:
The coverage of the event might not have been quite to the governor’s liking, one local Chicago station (might be NBC) pointed out 234 shootings (or something like that) and 10 arrests and pointed out the difference.
Been reading an interesting book Eyes In The Sky: The Secret Rise of Gorgon Stare And How It Will Watch Us All. It covers a wide area of detailed areal observation and how it has been used in war and how it has and can be used in law enforcement. The data it gathers can be used to rewind activity and figure out where a car involved in an incident came from and where it ended up after a crime. There are significant questions about privacy and other issues, but it is striking me as an interesting approach.
One example of what the technology can do is here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptSeU-OnI8E
- Grandson of Man - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:24 am:
Glad we’re moving in the right direction on expressway shootings. Would like to see more anti-violence efforts and less on sending many nonviolent offenders through the criminal justice system, from arrest to incarceration. Would like to see more investment in education, training and jobs—a more holistic approach and not the “law and order” of ginning up the white base with fear of the black and brown criminal, as is a staple with the GOP.
- Pundent - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:26 am:
=Funny as in how Democrats used Rauner’s wealth against him but all of a sudden when they had an even richer guy with no experience run for governor being a billionaire wasn’t a disqualifying attribute?=
Not sure how Rauner’s wealth was “used against him.” He lost the race to Pritzker because he was generally seen as a lousy governor, not a rich guy. Being rich isn’t disqualifying, but it does seem that being lousy is. Go figure. Maybe Pritzker will suffer the same fate. But as things look at the moment he seems to be doing a bit better than his predecessor.
- Roman - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:27 am:
The shooting death of that 71 year old grandfather in Chinatown was solved thanks to license plate readers (and probably would have gone unsolved without the LPRs given the random nature of the crime.) The suspect was arrested on an expressway. It was a very high-profile case. Surprised Kelly didn’t know about it.
https://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/12/7/22822748/chinatown-shooting-23rd-wentworth-woom-sing-tse
- OneMan - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:29 am:
==Not sure how Rauner’s wealth was “used against him.” He lost the race to Pritzker because he was generally seen as a lousy governor, not a rich guy. Being rich isn’t disqualifying, but it does seem that being lousy is. Go figure. ==
So you weren’t seeing the ads the first time he ran for Governor, only when he ran for re-election. Got it.
- Pundent - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 10:56 am:
=So you weren’t seeing the ads the first time he ran for Governor=
I probably did. They obviously weren’t effective. You’re attempt to get us to “see” something nefarious here is strained. I don’t begrudge either man’s wealth. Being wealthy is not qualifying or disqualifying in my mind. Parties will always attempt to cast their opponent as being “out of touch.” Republicans did that quite effectively with Pat Quinn. Nothing wrong with that either.
- Grandson of Man - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 11:15 am:
Since Rauner is brought up, his crowning achievement in relation to homicide spikes is purposely ripping apart the social safety net and violence prevention funding while getting astronomically richer. This legacy is what the ILGOP is getting ready to fully embrace, as the grooming for Griffin bucks goes on.
- Lol - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 11:23 am:
Candy Dogood, please stick to political analysis and don’t pretend to know how a criminal investigation works. License plate readers aren’t a starting point, they are one of many tools that can be utilized during an investigation. Like cell phones, they can be used to place suspects, developed during the investigations, at crime scenes to bolster the case. We get it, you’re not a fan of the police.
- Candy Dogood - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 11:30 am:
===with no experience run for governor being a billionaire wasn’t a disqualifying attribute?===
I never liked the “our billionaire vs their billionaire” campaign approach but any comment I would have made on that topic is from before I became a Dogooder but history has shown that these are two very different billionaires.
Rauner showed up to work in a costume and dropped his g’s. He outsourced his office and his policy to the IPI and proceeded to intentionally ruin the fiscal condition of the state in order to create a crisis. That crisis impacted hundreds of thousands of people directly, and everyone when it comes to the interest we paid on the late bills and the debts he ran up. He left the country for a vacation for two weeks and didn’t bother telling anyone and repeatedly lied about the national origins of his grand parents. He was an odd duck that had complete disregard for the negative outcomes he intentionally created for millions of people. After his abysmal and repetitive failures as a Governor he has quietly left.
Pritzker came into office ready to work with an earnest interest in improving the health and welfare of the State of Illinois and the people who live here. He spent $50 million of his own money to try to make Illinois’ tax policy less regressive and was defeated by billionaires that put up $20 million of their own money to lie about the impact of the policy. Pritzker seems to really enjoy his work and his efforts and is a person who actually seems to like the state he governs and care about the people who live here.
He will be regarded as one of the best governors we’ve ever had and while I still don’t like the “our billionaire against their billionaire” approach to politics, I am incredibly glad that JB Pritzker is our governor though I am often a critic.
If my son or daughter were to grow up to be a billionaire, JB Pritzker is the kind of billionaire I would want them to be. A billionaire like Bruce Rauner would no longer be invited to Christmas.
- Candy Dogood - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 11:33 am:
===License plate readers aren’t a starting point, they are one of many tools that can be utilized during an investigation.===
I believe I covered this; “that kind of evidence can certainly be helpful if they’re able to identify the suspect through other means.”
There are limitations to the usefulness and validity of that kind of data if a suspect or a target has not already been identified.
- OneMan - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 11:37 am:
== probably did. They obviously weren’t effective. You’re attempt to get us to “see” something nefarious here is strained.==
Nothing “nefarious” just found your example interesting, especially since Rauner was rather pragmatic and almost liberal when it came to criminal justice.
The prison population went down 9% under him, juvenile justice reform.
And yeah, during the primary for his second term, Ives did go after him about crime (Imigration in particular)
- H-W - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 11:42 am:
@OneMan =And yeah, during the primary for his second term, Ives did go after him about crime (Imigration in particular)=
Immigration is not a crime.
- Mason born - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 12:01 pm:
In regards to crime data, I’m not sure it matters whether the trend line is up or down. (I agree it’s important to make policy with that trend line in mind) you could shout from every rooftop and every nightly news the trend is down if I also see that someone was shot on the expressway I take to work with no one arrested, I’m not likely to feel safer by that fact. I guess what I’m trying to say is perception will matter more than data on this. Just saying.
- Amalia - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 1:13 pm:
hey, there’s more murders, but feel ok cause violent crime as a whole is down. jeez.
- Lucky Pierre - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 1:16 pm:
Problem will never be solved until the root of the problem is addressed head on.
We need massive federal intervention to go after gang violence over illegal drug wars.
This would include deportation of known violent undocumented gang bangers
Illinois has proven it cannot solve this problem because our State’s Attorney has instituted a catch and release program that should be reserved for fishing only
- Da big bad wolf - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 1:57 pm:
=== hey, there’s more murders, but feel ok cause violent crime as a whole is down.===
Those other crimes matter too.
- Payback - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 2:25 pm:
“…I like to imagine that some judges would find it difficult to approve warrants for someone’s phone or other items or locations..” I sincerely wish this was the situation, but in my experience “judicial oversight” per the U.S. Constitution is usually lacking for search and arrest warrants.
Honest judges know which police are liars, but if the prosecutors conspire with cops to doctor the paperwork, judges usually sign off. See “Dark Blue” with Kurt Russell, where the corrupt detective seeks out the judge (drinking a martini), and you’ll have some idea how that works.
- Oswego Willy - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 3:33 pm:
===Informal poll===
Or start your own blog?
- Amalia - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 4:28 pm:
murder is up in Chicago and in many other places. a victim can’t come back from that. but all this talk about crime stats makes me want to organize things better nationally and as it flows locally. why the FBI and the BJS have two stats mechanisms and murder is separated out from other violent crimes as things are calculated is mystifying. and maybe budget wise foolish.
- Amalia - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 4:50 pm:
here’s another stat I’m wondering about…..stores with windows smashed and things taken. clearly those incidents are way up, in a way that makes me struggle to remember many happening. do these kinds of incidents replace other crimes? perhaps. do these kinds of incidents scare people more? yes. kudos to the task force that caught the ringleader who not only hit the Burberry store, but who threw the ATM at the front of the N.Side Pritzker home. this is not normal.
- Pundent - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 5:04 pm:
=Illinois has proven it cannot solve this problem because our State’s Attorney has instituted a catch and release program that should be reserved for fishing only=
CPD is only “catching” about 12% of the fish. And sometimes those that it does happen to catch turn around and get large liability settlements from the city. So maybe the problem isn’t solely due to the State’s Attorney?
- (Sigh) - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 5:11 pm:
Can someone get Richard Irvin‘s running mate, Avery Borne, to share with us why she agreed to be on the ticket with his when his views are a lot different than his views? She has to be embarrassed and asking herself why did I agree to this after his abortion comments and abrupt end to the recent interview.
- Dotnonymous - Tuesday, Feb 8, 22 @ 5:11 pm:
“We need massive federal intervention to go after gang violence over illegal drug wars.”
Or…”We” could legalize drugs and treat the disease of Addiction with a medical solution…rather than another failed war…on people.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Feb 9, 22 @ 6:20 am:
Funny as in how Democrats used Rauner’s wealth against him but all of a sudden when they had an even richer guy with no experience run for governor being a billionaire wasn’t a disqualifying attribute? Just curious if that is funny as well?
Funny? I don’t think so. There are always going to be people who have a bias against rich people. I’m sure they sat out the last election.
I think the contrast between a guy who has his own reserve wine and luxury homes all over the country contrasted against stories like this didn’t help.
https://capitolfax.com/2017/02/10/the-impasse-almost-killed-a-baby/
- Da big bad wolf - Wednesday, Feb 9, 22 @ 6:20 am:
Sorry. That last comment was me.
- Ed - Wednesday, Feb 9, 22 @ 7:37 am:
Most homicides are committed by someone the victim knows (family member, rival, jilted lover, etc.), but there is a complete randomness when it comes to these expressway and drive by shootings that have been occurring. How do you expect police to increase their clearance rates if you don’t give them the tools to do it? Apple, Google, Facebook, etc. are way more invasive than an ALPR. Even Rich can probably figure out where you are at by the IP address you are messaging from on here.