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Today’s quotable

Wednesday, Jul 30, 2014

* US Sen. Mark Kirk

After Senator Mark Kirk spoke to the pro-Israel rally, he told FOX 32 News that President Obama is wrong to push for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza, where more than a thousand have reportedly now lost their lives. Kirk compared Israel’s war with Hamas, the Palestinian faction that rules Gaza, to World War II.

“Hamas is like Nazis. The more Nazis you got, the more Hamas you get, the more death you get,” Kirk said. “It was worth thousands of lives to wipe out the Nazis. And then the world was much better once they were wiped out. The only way to secure peace in the Middle East is to wipe out those who would bring terror to the Middle East.”

- Posted by Rich Miller        


90 Comments
  1. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:02 pm:

    He loves that money comin’ in don’t he?


  2. - PoolGuy - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:04 pm:

    that is about pro-Israeli as you can get. wow Senator, careful tossing in the Nazi card so quickly next time. at least wait a few conversations before invoking Godwin’s law.


  3. - gopher - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:06 pm:

    I think it’s politically very smart for him to take a hard line position.

    And while I somewhat agree with him, that sort of statement doesn’t get you a seat on Foreign Relations or help the US as a negotiating party.


  4. - lake county democrat - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:09 pm:

    This is from the Hamas charter - replace “Muslim” with “German” and it might as well have come from Mein Kampf.

    The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the
    rocks and trees will cry out: ‘O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.’ (Article 7)


  5. - PoolGuy - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:10 pm:

    yes but in the meantime the average Palestinian trying to live as normal a life as one can in a place like Gaza is going to have a hard time accepting this kind of treatment. now if the goal is to get them to turn on Hamas then fine.


  6. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:18 pm:

    Senator Kirk has apparently never heard of Godwin’s Law. A bunch of terrorists holed up in the slums of Gaza does not remotely equate with the genocidal Third Reich out to conquer the world.

    Political pandering sure brought out the bloodthirsty in Kirk. I guess calling for the deaths of thousands is pretty easy when you’re not doing the killing or being killed. Most people take that sort of thing seriously.

    If there is a peaceful “solution” to the Israel/Palestine conflict, and there’s no reason to think that there is, it won’t come from political blowhards in the U.S. Senate, but from those who live there.


  7. - lake county democrat - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:22 pm:

    PoolGuy - well, the broader issue of Israel/Palestine deserves another thread (and I doubt Rich would say “on this board”) - I only meant to say that the Nazi analogies aren’t at all out of line here. For the record I think the world needs to impose the general “two state solution” terms that have been talked about in one form or another since 2000 before technology and politics race ahead of our ability to do anything. As for the politicians statements - who knows - you can say campaign contributions are completely responsible but look how much sway over foreign policy a small segment of voters in Cuba has. If this was just about human rights we should be talking about Congo, where 1,000 mostly-kids will die today and similar sectarian violence is to blame.


  8. - crazybleedingheart - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:24 pm:

    When can we be rid of this guy.


  9. - PoolGuy - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:25 pm:

    for a US Senator to utter those words. there are over 1,200 deaths so far, mostly civilians on the Palestinian side. If a US Senator is saying lets kill a few thousand more and hopefully we will get a few of the bad ones, wow…

    And to use a phrase like “wipe out” when civilians are dying and a school was hit by artillery shells. Careful what you say.


  10. - 47th Ward - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:28 pm:

    I wish Senator Kirk would remember he’s serving in the United States Senate, not the Knesset.


  11. - PoolGuy - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:29 pm:

    LCD with respect I am aware of the broader issues in this ongoing conflict. and aware of places in Africa that rarely get any attention unless Bono or some celebrity takes a stand. just was responding to what a US Senator from Illinois was saying and how tossing the Nazi word around doesn’t always make one sound intelligent.


  12. - Chicago Cynic - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:30 pm:

    It’s a really disturbing statement, not because I disagree with Kirk about Hamas. I don’t. Nazi is not too strong a word to use. If Hamas had the means, they would literally wipe every Jew off the face of the Earth or at least kill every one in Israel. They’ve made that very clear.

    But this statement is so lacking in compassion for the innocent Palestinian victim that it’s hard to know where to begin. Palestinians are victims of horrifically bad leadership and have been for decades. A little compassion for them would have served Kirk better.


  13. - Black Ivy - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:32 pm:

    Hmmm…U.S. Senator Mark Kirk’s pro-Jewish “beliefs” suddenlky become more apparent at a very politically expedient time. The loss of life in the Israeli-Hamas conflict deeply saddens me, but I think comparing Hamas to the Nazis without certain qualifications is simply imflammatory.


  14. - train111 - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:34 pm:

    I think that the majority of Israelis and the majority of Palestinians want a 2-State solution. It’s just the religiuos nutballs (wipe out Israel, or let’s build this illegal settlement because God gave us this land) on both sides that botch it up for everybody else.

    Try finding an unbiased history of the events in thsi part of the world since 1948. Good Luck!!!


  15. - lake county democrat - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:34 pm:

    The entire debate on this conflict misses the big picture. What happens when these missiles can carry micronized anthrax ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E61_anthrax_bomblet )? What happens when you start seeing Hamas-like tactics in other sectarian conflicts? What happens if Israel’s demographic trends produce a government that makes Bibi Netanyahu seem flexible by comparison?

    What about other realpolitik concerns? Stephen Walt - one of Israel’s fiercest critics - believes (as do others) that China is the biggest foreign threat to the U.S. The NY Times has reported that the Chinese military has hacked nearly every fortune 500 company’s computers. The US and Israeli military cooperate on cyberwarfare technology - remember stuxnet - and Israel has some of the top computer security tech companies in the world. On the other side, fracking innovation aside, we’re still heading towards “peak oil.”

    It’s a terribly complex situation and one that I think if we ignore and “leave it to the parties” will engulf us eventually. I don’t know if giving the Palestinians a state they will find imperfect to say the least will give them enough stake to quell their militants, but I think it’s worth a try and will only come if it’s imposed (formally or informally) from the outside.


  16. - The Captain - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:35 pm:

    There is space in the political spectrum to be for protecting the security interests of Israel and still hoping to minimize or eliminate any Palestinian civilian casualties. This statement blows past that, way past it. Wow.


  17. - lake county democrat - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:37 pm:

    (I mean the current debate in the media on the present Gaza war misses the big picture - not the debate on this thread)


  18. - Angry Republican - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:43 pm:

    There must be something in the water in IL since we can now count on both senators to compare people to Nazis. How long before Oberweis makes the same analogy?


  19. - Judgment Day - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:45 pm:

    Senator Kirk:

    FWIW, this is not your fight. There are no winners in that fight, and won’t be.

    If this is a case of your ‘friends and supporters’ pushing you, it’s time for you to tell them up front that this isn’t your fight.

    You represent the State of Illinois, not Israel. BTW, the same advice should be given to Luis Gutiérrez on immigration.

    There’s plenty of work that needs to be done right here at home in Illinois. Why aren’t you working on those issues?


  20. - independant - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:50 pm:

    Rabbi Henry Siegman, Leading Voice of U.S. Jewry, on Gaza: “A Slaughter of Innocents” this morning on Democracy Now would have disagreed with our Senators sentiments. He is trying to put all this mess in some historical prespective.


  21. - MrJM - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:51 pm:

    Comparisons to Nazis are the surest way to establish oneself as a deep and measured thinker.

    – MrJM


  22. - Stones - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 12:58 pm:

    It seems like a reckless statement from a US Senator. He could impart the same message in a more diplomatic statement.


  23. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:01 pm:

    ==Comparisons to Nazis are the surest way to establish oneself as a deep and measured thinker.

    – MrJM==

    When it’s a relevant comparison, as this is, it should be used.


  24. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:02 pm:

    You people act like Hamas is rational…


  25. - G'Kar - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:03 pm:

    I do not endorse Hamas and their tactics, but right now it looks to me that the only ones “bringing terror to the Middle East,” especially Gaza is Israel.


  26. - Dirty Red - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:04 pm:

    I have lost a lot for Kirk over the last couple of weeks.

    First there was an interview he gave to CNN about MH17 the day after it was shot down. The Senator decided to dodge all questions and instead promote a $2M defense system. Now he is going on network television saying thousands of innocent deaths are justified so long as it leads to the extermination of a group of people.

    The Senator can use all of the horrible Nazi references he wants, but killing anyone labeled Hamas will not lead to peace. He knows better. Violence breeds violence. This is just shameful.


  27. - Wensicia - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:04 pm:

    Ridiculous statement, especially coming from a United States Senator.


  28. - Toure's Latte - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:05 pm:

    Between Kirk and Durbin there is a lot of Nazis still running around.


  29. - 47th Ward - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:10 pm:

    ===You people act like Hamas is rational…===

    I don’t think anyone said that. I don’t see much if any defending of the dispicable Hamas or their tactics that put Palestinians in the greatest risk.

    Please don’t try to change the subject. The subject is Senator Kirk’s statement.


  30. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:14 pm:

    ==Please don’t try to change the subject. The subject is Senator Kirk’s statement.==

    And Senator Krirk’s statement was directed and related to Hamas. It’s not changing the subject, it’s speaking directly to Kirk’s message.


  31. - Palanon - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:15 pm:

    >>>>> If this is a case of your ‘friends and supporters’ pushing you, it’s time for you to tell them up front that this isn’t your fight.

    Votes is votes. Kirk still thinks that he represents the 10th.


  32. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:17 pm:

    ==The Senator can use all of the horrible Nazi references he wants, but killing anyone labeled Hamas will not lead to peace==

    Getting rid of Hamas would be a HUGE step towards peace. I don’t see how any rationally thinking person could believe otherwise.


  33. - 47th Ward - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:17 pm:

    Anonymous, show me where anybody on this comment thread said or implied Hamas was rational.


  34. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:19 pm:

    ===Getting rid of Hamas would be a HUGE step towards peace===

    Meh. Ever been to the Middle East? The hatred goes far beyond established groups.


  35. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:22 pm:

    ==Anonymous, show me where anybody on this comment thread said or implied Hamas was rational.==

    Show me where Kirks message was directed towards anyone other than Hamas that one could say Kirks statement was false or out of line. His statement was directed at the one group of any in this world worthy of comparison to Nazis. Just because others use the comparison when there is none, doesn’t mean it’s not a worthy comparison here.


  36. - gopher - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:22 pm:

    Off track or not, this thread is still the most calm and rational discussion related to Israel that I have seen anywhere.

    Kudos to Rich and the smart CapFax readers who keep a lid on the crazy. The people who comment on the Tribune site are taking that place down. They should eliminate anonymous comments again. They don’t moderate and it looks terrible.


  37. - Demoralized - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:23 pm:

    Yikes. It’s wrong to want an end to hostilities? Then he talks about “wiping people out?” I really don’t have words for those statements.


  38. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:25 pm:

    ==Meh. Ever been to the Middle East? The hatred goes far beyond established groups.==

    When have tensions been lessened? When Hamas has been weakened. When have tensions been heightened? When Hamas has been empowered. There are hateful and bigoted groups all over the world, but they only truly threaten peace when empowered to do so, either directly or by others who could stop them turning a blind eye.


  39. - Dirty Red - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:26 pm:

    = I don’t see how any rationally thinking person could believe otherwise. =

    From your point of view. I’m sure there are plenty out there that would replace “Hamas” with “Israel” in that sentence.

    To be clear, I am not advocating for one side or the other here. And while bringing lasting peace to the Middle east is above my pay grade, I cannot imagine how one accomplishes such a feat by exterminating one side no matter what the cost to the other, which, to me, is what the Senator seemed to be supporting in the interview.


  40. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:27 pm:

    ===Then he talks about “wiping people out?” I really don’t have words for those statements===

    “Wiping them out” is probably the only way to stop that particular group. Didja see those tunnels they were building? Those weren’t part of some job-creating transportation infrastructure plan, dude.


  41. - Come one man! - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:33 pm:

    Israel is a rational state actor. They need to be vigilant. Hamas will only rest once all Jews and Christians are apart of an islamic caliphate.


  42. - Belle - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:36 pm:

    Money Money Money Money Money


  43. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:37 pm:

    ===Getting rid of Hamas would be a HUGE step towards peace===

    There have been times in the region when there was an absence of outright warfare, such as when the Romans, Ottomans or Brits had their boot on someone’s neck, but “peace” has never really been part of the history.

    The current borders in the region were drawn up at Versailles in 1919, mostly by Lloyd George and Clemenceau, without any input whatsoever by the folks who live there.

    Sidenote: At one point at Versailles, it was discussed whether the Americans should assume responsibility for the “protectorate” of Palestine. Wilson wiggled out of it, as he knew he would have a tough time as it was selling the League of Nations to the Senate (no sale, as it turned out). So the Brits got the job.


  44. - Dirty Red - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:39 pm:

    = Israel is a rational state actor. =

    You might be right. I am struggling with that as of late when I read accounts like this…
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/24/israeli-strike-un-school-gaza-kills-women-children

    “Victory at all costs” doesn’t lead to a victory, IMHO.


  45. - Demoralized - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:39 pm:

    Rich:

    I’m generally not in favor of wiping an entire group of people out. But that’s just me. Everybody wants to wipe everybody else out in the Middle East. I suppose that’s one peace plan. Nobody left to fight anymore.


  46. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:42 pm:

    ===I suppose that’s one peace plan. Nobody left to fight anymore. ===

    Um, no. See my other comment on this.

    Hamas is a bad actor, period. Destroying Hamas wouldn’t be a bad thing at all. But to equate destroying Hamas with eliminating all Palestinians or Muslims would not be in line with my other comment above.


  47. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:43 pm:

    Hezbollah certainly became less aggressive in the border area between Israel and Lebanon after Israel hit them pretty hard a few years ago. They are pretty distracted with issues in other areas, I suppose. But the knowledge that they can be hit hard may have something to do with their lack of activity.

    Hamas and Nazis are comparable if you look at intent. And that could well be what Kirk was making reference to. We all know that the capabilities of the Nazis far outstrip Hamas. Except if you look at the waning days of the 3rd Reich. The Nazis still used huge resources to continue their final solution - even to the obvious detriment of their fighting ability. In that regard the comparison is even more apt.

    There can never be a 2 state solution with Hamas present. We all know that any lasting peace there with the Palestinians can not be easily visualized given their history (never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity). Kirk is, I think, awkwardly trying to make that point.


  48. - Observing - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:46 pm:

    I am Jewish and pro-Israel. I think the settlement expansion in the West Bank is an avoidable provocation and should end. On the other hand, how can Israel do anything but what they are doing now to end the rocketing and destroy tunnels that funnel arms and infiltrate Israel. The Palentinians have the power to stop all of this by simply affixing signatures to a treaty that states that they recognize Israel’s right to exist and will respect that treaty. Then, and only then, can negotiations truly begin to establish a Palestinian state.


  49. - Empty Suit - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:46 pm:

    Let’s see Nazis wiped out how many Jews? Hamas wants to wipe out all Jews. So the difference would be what?


  50. - The KQ - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:49 pm:

    Dirty Red, I might by your argument if it wasn’t for stories like this: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/29/THIRD-Rocket-Arsenal-Found-At-UN-School-In-Gaza


  51. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:52 pm:

    The other day, I was on Michigan Ave. and walked by a group of Palestinian protesters. They weren’t screaming about Israel, they were screaming about the evil Jews. Eliminationist rhetoric has flowed from that crowd for decades. But we are starting to see it come from the pro-Israeli side now and that’s a very disturbing development.

    I would take Kirk at his word that he’s confining his remarks to Hamas. They do need to be pounded into dust. But we need to be very careful not to make sweeping generalizations about the elimination of an entire class of people. And that goes for both sides.


  52. - 47th Ward - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:55 pm:

    Here’s some free advice Anonymous: first, pick a nickname so we can follow along.

    Second, when you begin a sentence with “You people…” we might think you’re referring to the rest of us.


  53. - Peoria Pete - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:57 pm:

    As a general rule, there is nothing that Mark Kirk says about Israeli affairs that is helpful or balanced and is likely to lead to any sort of rationale resolution to the Israel-Palestinian conflict. But he’ll definitely be trumpted as a loyal friend of Israel and the Jewish people when he runs for reelection.


  54. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:57 pm:

    –Hamas will only rest once all Jews and Christians are apart of an islamic caliphate.–

    For crying out loud, how tall do you think those guys are? They can’t bust out of Gaza.


  55. - Demoralized - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 1:59 pm:

    Rich:

    I didn’t say you said such a thing, but whatever. And you know perfectly well that what I said was said tongue planted firmly in cheek. I’ve apparently touched a nerve with you. I’m not defending Hamas, only questioning the mentality of those who wish to completely wipe anybody out. Period.


  56. - Dirty Red - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:02 pm:

    KQ - Hmm. I had not seen mention of this, and might have to take it into consideration.

    For the record, I’m not claiming Israel is acting irrationally. My real argument is about extremist statements like “wipe them out.”

    Good discussion going on here.


  57. - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:13 pm:

    For crying out loud, how tall do you think those guys are? They can’t bust out of Gaza.

    Yes they can. They are trying to now. What they are lacking is a nuclear bomb. Then it won’t matter how tall they are.


  58. - Just Observing - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:16 pm:

    === I do not endorse Hamas and their tactics, but right now it looks to me that the only ones “bringing terror to the Middle East,” especially Gaza is Israel. ===

    Evidently you aren’t aware of the atrocities occurring in Syria and Iraq.


  59. - Just Observing - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:17 pm:

    === Off track or not, this thread is still the most calm and rational discussion related to Israel that I have seen anywhere. Kudos to Rich and the smart CapFax readers who keep a lid on the crazy. ===

    I was thinking the same thing.


  60. - Pot calling kettle - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:17 pm:

    ==Destroying Hamas wouldn’t be a bad thing at all.==

    Depends on which group replaces them. The situation in Israel/West Bank/Gaza is incredibly complex. Getting rid of Hamas will leave a vacuum that will be filled by what? If Israel continues to build settlements and walls and blockade Gaza, the ground will remain fertile for another extremist group.

    Kirk is oversimplifying, but worse than that, he seems to be saying that it’s OK to kill as many civilians as necessary in order to take out Hamas. That kind or rhetoric does not get us any closer to solving the problem; if anything, it moves us farther away by telling Hamas there is no reason to stop fighting.


  61. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:23 pm:

    –What they are lacking is a nuclear bomb.–

    What would they do with that? Blow themselves up? Because if they let one loose anywhere in Israel, that would be the result. Not a big place.

    If any of these guys were 10-feet-tall, they would have been victorious long ago.

    And if they had any brains, they would have followed the Indian/South African/American South models and filled the jails through non-violent resistance. There would have been a Palestinian state long ago.


  62. - Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:28 pm:

    ===Not a big place===

    170-mile coastline. About the length between Chicago and Peoria.


  63. - Just Observing - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:29 pm:

    === killing anyone labeled Hamas will not lead to peace. He knows better. Violence breeds violence. This is just shameful. ===

    Is your suggestion that Israelis sing kumbaya and hope for the best?


  64. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:33 pm:

    ==he seems to be saying that it’s OK to kill as many civilians as necessary in order to take out Hamas. ==

    Where, exactly, did he say that? He essentially stated that thousands sacrificed their lives for a worthy cause of eliminating the Nazis in WWII. Nowhere did he say it’s “ok to kill as many civilians as necessary” to defeat Hamas.


  65. - Just Observing - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:34 pm:

    === If Israel continues to build settlements and walls and blockade Gaza, the ground will remain fertile for another extremist group. ===

    1. Israel has not had any settlements in Gaza for about seven years. There are no Jews in Gaza. Hamas was voted in AFTER Israel left Gaza.

    2. The walls have been very successful in keeping suicide bombers and other terrorists out of Israel. The rate of attacks within Israel has dramatically decreased since the walls have been built. The alternative, as you seem to suggest, is for Israel to make it easier for terrorist attacks on their soil.

    3. The blockade, while possibly needing continued examination, is necessary to prevent weaponry from getting into Gaza. Even with a blockade, look how many thousands of missiles and weapons have made it into Israel. Moreover, Egypt also has a blockade on Gaza. So, is this about the blockade or about Israel/Jews? If not, why isn’t Hamas lobbing missiles into Egypt?


  66. - Mason born - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:38 pm:

    I suspect Kirk’s statement was off the cuff and not rehearsed. That being said he is fundamentaly correct. Only one of the two actors involved targets innocent civilians and it is that actor that needs to be brouht to heal.

    Hamas places weapons caches and firing emplacements in Hospitals and U.N. Schools then screams about the people taking shelter there being injured. Hamas is playing the west they are doing all they can to ensure that the news discusses the body count killed by Israel. They are very effective at that.

    Those tunnels are build with hundreds of yards of Concrete. Concrete that is desperately needed to construct homes, schools, and public works. It would be one thing if those tunnels were used for Bomb Shelters for the civilian populace ala London in the Blitz, but they are for infiltrating Israel and attacking Israeli citizens.

    How much restraint would you show if Chicago was being bombarded daily by Waukegan?


  67. - Sunshine - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:39 pm:

    Well, at least we know where Kirk stands on the issue. When it comes to killen, kill’em all is probably the only route to assure Israel’s survival. Being sweet and turning the other cheek will assure their destruction.

    I think Kirk clearly understands Hamas’s intent to wipe Israel off the face of the map….much like radical Islam has promised to do to all us infidels.

    If you see me hugging a Muslim or a Hamas member, it isn’t a show of love, it’s because I’ll be checking them for weapons. Similar to what my wife and I do prior to starting a project together.


  68. - Empty Suit - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:39 pm:

    If you think the hate is isolated to Hamas think again.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etDb5tXPawc


  69. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:40 pm:

    Israel is just a little bit larger than Vermont, number 45 of the 50 states by land area.


  70. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:41 pm:

    sounds like ethnic cleansing (jericho style) are they a country or a religon?


  71. - crazybleedingheart - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:47 pm:

    It’s always interesting how much more susceptible conservative American WASPs are to right-wing Israeli government propaganda than are Jews who live in other countries.

    As for Kirk, I don’t think it’s seemly for anyone willing to straight-facedly suggest rounding up and mass arresting 18,000 black residents of Chicago to go around calling anyone Nazis. Tsk. It’s just gonna raise a lot of uncomfortable questions.


  72. - Peoria Pete - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:49 pm:

    @ Just Observing - While Israel may not have any settlements in Gaza, it uses its military to exercise tremendous control over Gaza and, in turn, effects daily life for all of the residents of Gaza. Israel’s blockade has effectively destroyed the Gazan economy. The blockade is also used to deny the importation of adequate food supplies for the Gazan people, especially the children. I realize that Israel has a right to ensure its security, but it goes about it as a zero sum game and Senator Kirk’s statements don’t show a very nuanced understanding of what’s going on in Gaza/Israel today.


  73. - Dirty Red - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:54 pm:

    = Is your suggestion that Israelis sing kumbaya and hope for the best? =

    Oh please.


  74. - Wensicia - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 2:59 pm:

    I don’t see how the situation can be resolved as long as Hamas controls the Palestinian people. Until they see this organization is more harmful to their cause than Israel, nothing will change. Unfortunately generational hate clouds their vision, so the violence continues. “Kill ‘em all” is irrational; you can’t wipe out an ethnicity.


  75. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 3:06 pm:

    – “Kill ‘em all” is irrational; you can’t wipe out an ethnicity.–

    You can come pretty darn close, though, as the first folks the Europeans encountered in North and South America would tell you. As would the Armenians. As would the European Jews.


  76. - VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 3:11 pm:

    It’s always interesting how much more susceptible conservative American WASPs are to right-wing Israeli government propaganda than are Jews who live in other countries.

    The Israeli cabinet represents every political group, not just right wingers. They voted 19-0 to tell Kerry to take a hike. According to its history, that is one of the few unanimous votes ever taken in any Israeli cabinet.

    So, thinking you have to be a right winger or a crazed conservative, or whatever insulting thing you are wanting to label someone supporting Israel - is wrong.

    Try to keep up with what’s happening in the real world before polluting this thread with silly old political crap like that.


  77. - Shore - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 3:19 pm:

    wrong. hamas, plo, hezbollah, al quds, gaddafi, ulster unionists, the jackal. these aren’t the nazis.


  78. - walker - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 3:25 pm:

    Over a thousand missiles fired recently from Gaza at Israel. Hundreds of tunnels used for infiltration and arms storage. Yes Israel should continue to do what it takes on the ground to confiscate or destroy those arms, and tunnels. To think they can “wipe out” Hamas with this current ground action is foolish. Get ‘em in Gaza, they get stronger elsewhere around Israel. Support the ground effort itself, and don’t waste our time with hour long cease fires, but don’t overstate the goals.

    This is the usual pandering, and faux tough guy talk from Commander Kirk. But no big deal, he’s been doing it for years. Even the Isrealis know it’s code for his local electorate.


  79. - Gantt Chart - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 4:07 pm:

    I can’t help but think that one morning, I’m going to wake up, turn on the TV, a see a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv, and Arab tanks rolling a cross the borders of Israel. The bomb will have been smuggled in in pieces and assembled on the ground—so there’s no aerial trajectory to backtrack to the sender. Our nuke forensics guys will eventually determine where the nuclear core material came from, but then the war will be over. I really can’t blame the Israelis for wanting to sweep their borders of vipers today…


  80. - Bill Smith - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 4:13 pm:

    Bold ignorance is one personal attribute Kirk needn’t falsely boast about.


  81. - zatoichi - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 5:24 pm:

    Not exactly smooth political talking. Putting ‘Nazi’ in any statement just wrecks your message.


  82. - wordslinger - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 5:27 pm:

    That’s quite a yarn you spin there Gannt. I especially like the part where parties unknown sneak into Israel and assemble and detonate a nuclear weapon on the ground. How hard could it be, if there’s a Home Depot in the neighborhood?

    But I don’t think any “Arab tanks” would roll straight into the radiation kill-zone that would be Israel, even if they were that crazy, simply because anyone who could drive them would be dead.

    You see, like the United States, Israel has a nuclear triad capability — the ability to deliver nuclear warheads from the land, sea and air. That capability allows for a retaliatory strike even in the event of massive destruction.

    And retaliate they would, against everyone (I know you think someone could do it secretly, but that’s pretty silly, and irrelevant).

    In the event of possible defeat or destruction, Israeli policy is to exercise the “Samson Option” — they’d use their nukes to pull the temple down on everyone in the neighborhood.

    In the early days of the Yom Kippur/Ramandan war, when things were going badly for Israel, Golda Meir ordered a number of nuclear warheads to be prepared for launch from the ground and air. It was done so very overtly, so U.S. intelligence would see they meant business.

    In response, Nixon ordered a massive, round-the-clock airlift of conventional war materiel to Israel (that was a near thing for us with the Soviets, who were doing the same for Egypt, but cooler heads prevailed). Israel regained its lost ground, and then there was a cease fire.

    The U.S. airlift, by the way, prompted the OPEC oil embargo and the first great gasoline price shock here. It was the end of cheap gas as we knew it.


  83. - Responsa - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 5:29 pm:

    I think anyone who has really studied recent world history comes to the conclusion that the U.S and Britain and other western countries did not take sides soon enough or firmly enough during the run-up to WWII. Many people of that era saw what was happening but thought they could ignore it and appease their way out of a situation borne of zealous madness or that it could be contained and would “stay” overseas. Oops. If you’ve seen the recurrence of synagogues being burned and graffiti, and beatings of Jews going on in Europe right now how can you not have have a sense of deja vu. I applaud Sen Kirk for taking a stand.


  84. - efudd - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 5:44 pm:

    Responsa-when Hamas invades Poland, the Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia, and allies with the Soviet Union, then compare them to Nazis.


  85. - Anon - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 5:48 pm:

    == I applaud Kirk for taking a stand ==
    In favor of bombing UN schools and hospitals. Apparently human rights DNA in Gaza.


  86. - Responsa - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 6:02 pm:

    Anon–you are taking an obvious stand in your comments here. Why shouldn’t Sen. Kirk let people know where he stands? Agree with them or not, I wish more politicians would boldly go on record instead of being, you know, mealy mouthed evasive politicians trying to play all sides and offend no one. I am curious–Is it that Kirk took a stand at all that you object to, or is it the specific stand he took that you find unpalatable?


  87. - JackD - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 7:26 pm:

    Palestinians equal Canaanites?


  88. - steve schnorf - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 7:28 pm:

    Perhaps Sen Kirk was “undiplomatic”. Also perhaps our diplomacy isn’t working very well (see: Gaza/Hamas/rockets and Russia/Putin/Ukraine, or Malaysia Airlines/plane destroyed). Avoiding civilian casualties is is good: surviving is better.


  89. - Anonymous - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 8:53 pm:

    sarah and hagars boys have never stopped fighting over religion, both belive in the same bible kinda


  90. - dupage dan - Wednesday, Jul 30, 14 @ 11:47 pm:

    Anon, are you referring to the schools that the UN found weapons caches in? Just wonderin’


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