Question of the day
Wednesday, Sep 10, 2014 - Posted by Rich Miller
* The Tribune editorialized on yesterday’s Tribune editorial board appearance by the two gubernatorial candidates…
Our hunch is that incumbent Quinn sees challenger Rauner as the smug kid who grew up to be a robber baron. Quinn swung early and hard at Rauner, so much so that he looked gassed and slumped into his chair. An aide repeatedly advised him to sit up straight; she got intermittent obedience. What did rouse Quinn was his desire to have the last words, often focused on Rauner’s alleged “deception.” Watch the video, at chicagotribune.com/tribgov, and keep track of how many times Quinn looks as if he just wants to take a whack at Rauner. […]
Our companion hunch is that Rauner sees Quinn as an undisciplined payroller who couldn’t manage a pop stand. Watch Rauner sit as erect as an admiral addressing members of Congress and judge for yourself: Is he rigorous or rigid? Rauner, too, likes to have the last words, often wrapping Quinn in “cronyism, patronage and corruption.” As for wanting to take a whack at Quinn — keep track of how many times an unflinching Rauner looks dismissively toward Quinn, as if he wouldn’t go to the trouble of making it physical.
* The Question: Who won yesterday’s debate? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please.
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- Formerly Known As... - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 11:54 am:
The lingering impression is of Mr. Quinn being passed notes by staff, when they weren’t busy whispering in his ear.
For that reason, Rauner wins by a whisker.
That is unfortunate, because it has absolutely nothing to do with who would better serve our people. Just like much of this campaign.
- VanillaMan - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 11:56 am:
Quinn looked so un-gubernatorial, his staffer broke away from the courteous rules usually employed at debates, and kept asking her boss to look gubernatorial.
It was no contest.
Pat Quinn was only a banjo away from still looking like a Lt. Governor with Rod Blagojevich.
- mcb - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 11:56 am:
Voted Rauner, but not by that much. Looked in control, Quinn looked more like was out struggling and grasping at straws. Rauner’s negative hits were simple and easy to digest, patronage, corruption, just like Rod. Quinn’s hits on Rauner required too many words. Simple messages win.
All that being said, it was basically a matter of watching two guys argue over which one is more corrupt.
- So. ILL - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 11:56 am:
Rauner won because he didn’t need an advisor passing him notes. You can’t cheat on these tests, Gov.
- Nony - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:03 pm:
I voted Rauner, and I’m going to second mcb’s comments
- Cassiopeia - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:06 pm:
Rauner looked like a leader. Quinn looked like a tired old politician.
- Leprechaun - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:06 pm:
Rauner for two reasons. I watched the whole thing and Quinn just looked and sounded frustrated many times . It was if he was mad that Rauner was running for a job he always wanted and deserved and it was being taken away .
Then the passing of the notes which the tribune commented on.
Bottom line Rauner looked and came off a lot more proffesional.
- js - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:06 pm:
Raunner, because Quinn was in a slump.
- northshore cynic - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:13 pm:
Vallas gave some of the best responses and looked much more in control of the facts than Quinn but that was not a choice in your poll.
- Team Sleep - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:14 pm:
For those who think the staffer interference is no big deal…
When I was on a larger staff, we routinely wrote very detailed briefings for the elected official. If it was something related to the official’s “official” (i.e. non-political) capacity, we would write the briefings during the day and at the office. If the event was political, we would write the briefings at home or at the campaign office. Simple enough. The idea was to give the boss enough ammo (so to speak) to go to the event, have minimal (or no) staffing while there and thus be able to do what was necessary to have a successful visit, speech, appearance, etc. If one of the boss’s staffers had to interrupt, it made the boss look worse and it often compounded confusion in the middle of the appearance or event.
Governor Quinn - who is like Treasurer Rutherford in the way he handles his affairs - should not need his press staffer to remind him to sit up straight.
- Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:17 pm:
Rauner had better body language, for sure. But I thought Quinn managed to equalize the corruption issue, so I thought he won.
- wordslinger - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:20 pm:
For lack of of any other choice, I voted draw.
I don’t know what that was, but it wasn’t a “debate” as I understand the definition of the word.
What were the Tribbies trying to accomplish with that weird setup?
It was supposedly a closed edit board meeting to provide a sober, thoughtful setting, but it was streamed live so both candidates played to the cameras.
It was supposedly a forum on issues orchestrated by deep thinkers, but they ran it like a Jerry Springer show shouting-match on “Who’s the Biggest Jerk?”
And what were the l.g. candidates doing there, anyway? Holding coats?
Even the Tribbie edit is strange. Who cares what their “hunches” are regarding what the candidates think of each other? Was that supposed to be insightful? For months now, anybody could see that they can’t stand each other.
Was the goal to shed some light, or just bring more heat? Heat, there’s already plenty of already. Light, not so much.
That Tribbie crew remains confusing, and confused. Maybe Zell forgot his stash on his way out the door. That would explain a lot.
- Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:21 pm:
Rauner for a couple reasons.
1) Visually, he looked and talked with the bearing and confidence of a man ready to assume the responsibility of the office. Quinn looked much less so, talked in pithy, whiny platitudes, and then came “Notegate.”
2) Rhetorically, Rauner talked about his goals and plans for the office,flimsy as they might be. We heard much less of Pat Quinn and Quinn’s plans, but plenty of shots at Rauner, not that Rauner didn’t get in a healthy share.
Quinn’s apparent lack of prep and/or fatigue coupled with a massive staff fail took this from a tie to a Rauner win as I see it.
- Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:23 pm:
Also, Rauner’s answer on minimum wage was a joke. McCormick got in the dig about his multiple positions on the issue and trying to keep them all straight. Brucie laughably said, “I’ve been very clear.” He’s the only one who thinks he’s been clear.
- LincolnLounger - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:25 pm:
I thought Rauner bested Quinn by a nose — mostly because of body language and temperament.
I suspect the bigger winner was the Libertarian candidate.
- Jerry Hubbard - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:31 pm:
There shoulda been a 4th choice in this poll….Brooke Anderson. She also participated in the debate.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:41 pm:
Who won?
Draw, but hear me out…
As I read the comments above, and recall my own memory of the event, and the answers, and probably more importantly, the specific questions and follow-up questions pointed at each.
I saw very in impressive answers, and heard a great deal of unimpressed panelists, frustrated with two “children” talking over each other with awkwardly placed talking points to go negative on the other, while using child-like reactions toward the cameras and toward the panelists, as to sway, with raised voices and ugly looks.
It was a draw, the discussion…
…now back to remembering what I saw, and the comments, it was the Staff blunder that lost it for Quinn, and is carrying the day for Rauner…and those “watching” and “seeing” that, it’s a no-brainer, slam dunk for Rauner.
I don’t disagree one bit. Period. Visually and verbally, Rauner took it to Quinn with optics framing Quinn “The Bumbler” for Rauner, without even having to point it out.
It’s like the 1960 debate, Kennedy-Nixon;
Those who only heard the debate, a majority picked Nixon.
Those who watched the debate, chose Kennedy.
It was the visual.
“If we wanted applause, we would have joined the Circus.” There really isn’t any GOOD reason to make the Principle seem ill-prepared, or lacking in the grasp of the subject at hand. It is the Staff’s role to be invisibly accessible to the Principle, not a visible crutch of vulnerability that others pounce on, and the Principle has to overcome as well.
It’s tough enough to spar with an opponent, you don’t need your Staff hurting you too.
I have a great deal of respect for Staff. It’s hard. The job itself is brutal, and throw in the hours, the workspaces you need to “find”, travel, no weekends…I go out if my way to applaud the job, the actual job of being Staff, whenever I can.
This was a Staff fail.
I went over yesterday what I thought about the “note-gate” Dopiness, but what is real to that about me, and why my disappointment is overwhelming, is “Unless it’s a grad slam home run note, in a game 7 of a World Series type of situation, then the negative that is caused in the visual, that won’t be overcome”…
…and that is what I am reading here too.
“Do no harm” - it harmed. I’m sorry.
“Draw” on the debate, Rauner with a solid Kennedy win.
- Chicago Cynic - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:54 pm:
I voted draw. Brookegate combined with PQ’s entire appearance and demeanor was bad but I’m a substance person and Rauner’s substance was equally bad.
That said, completely agree with Word and Willy above.
- Illinoise - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 12:56 pm:
What is this, People magazine? It doesn’t matter who was wearing what or speculation of the candidates’ facial expressions and posture.By immediately focusing on the optics, rather than the substance, the Trib does a really bad job of hiding the fact that Rauner was their “guy” from day one. Does anyone actually think that Pat Quinn would ever, in a milion years, get a Trib endorsement? By immediately focusing on the nonsense, they distract from the issues, which may be strategic given their history of endorsements:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-03-06/opinion/chi-bruce-rauner-change-agent-in-gop-field-20140306_1_bruce-rauner-gop-field-job-growth
- Say It Ain't So! - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 1:03 pm:
Now that it has been pointed out that Rauner once again lied about Payton Prep during the debate, has anyone reconsidered who won the debate? Does fact checking enter into as to who the ultimate winner is?
- Mason born - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 1:06 pm:
To me Rauner won by looking ready to take the job. Quinn managed to look like the one asking for a job above his capabilities.
Most folks aren’t going to dig into details on the responses and the soundbites they will catch are already being reinforced.
Idot patronage been in the news for weeks.
Corruption Nri splashes in October.
Incompetent Brooke cemented that yesterday.
If Quinn is going to get his stuff to stick he better build a sstronger narative.
- Lakewood Balmoral - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 1:12 pm:
Oswego Willy nailed it.
When I heard the “debate”, read the live-tweets covering it, and read the press coverage, I thought Quinn won.
When I watched the video and had images to match the words, I thought Rauner won.
I voted that Quinn won because it will be the messages that carry the day. Getting Rauner to say he followed standard protocols when it comes to his daughter at Walter Payton and getting Rauner to balk at how to fund his education plan will result in free media that will supplemented with paid media.
- Empty Suit - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 1:38 pm:
For a seasoned politico Quinn sounded like a whiny kid on the playground. The staffer handing him notes didn’t help either.
- nobody - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 1:56 pm:
Not sure either of them won, but Illinois certainly lost with these two being our only choices for Governor. Reminded me of two little kids fighting in the sandbox……..
- walker - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:04 pm:
Quinn looked worse.
Rauner’s substance lagged badly.
(My “hunch”, as legitimate a statement apparently as the Tribune Editorial Board’s, is that Quinn got frustrated and disheartened with Rauner’s evasion and false statements.)
Which do voters mostly remember? Image not truth.
Rauner by a cheek.
- Henry Moon - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:05 pm:
Hard to believe that someone on the Trib board bought the ’sit up straight’ spin. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it?
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:07 pm:
===Which do voters mostly remember? Image not truth.===
I’m only gonna weigh in because several of you have mentioned how the candidates appeared on the video.
Keep in mind that this debate wasn’t even broadcast on TV. So, the number of people who actually saw it is far less than the number of people who saw the coverage.
Gubernatorial debates rarely have the impact of presidential debates because so few watch them. And in this instance, even fewer watched.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:21 pm:
===Keep in mind that this debate wasn’t even broadcast on TV. So, the number of people who actually saw it is far less than the number of people who saw the coverage.===
It’s been said here in the past too, debates, televised debates (and this was a choppy, at best, internet feed, video) don’t move the needles unless a colossal blunder of epic proportions, that has substantial legs, occurs.
In an internet video, that had sound cut in and out, there was none of that, and the “fallout” is just inside baseball responses to a question here for all of us to parse and dissect.
To Brooke’s defense, after taking her to task, the informal way of sitting around a table, with Staff at an arms length, and the combative tone that evolved, it was a all a recipe for something for this to possibly occur, and it did.
Other forums or whatever they are going to call their next sessions will not lend itself to these variables.
No one feels worse than she, or…
…maybe she understands and feels bad, but has moved on, being the pro Brooke is, and will chalk it up as a learned lesson and moves on.
I bet the second.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:27 pm:
“… it was a recipe for something for this to possibly occur, and it did.
Other forums, or whatever they are going to call their next sessions, will not lend themselves to these variables.”
- zatoichi - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:36 pm:
Rauner kept playing with the cuff of his shirt and kept interrupting by repeating his main talking points as if saying it enough makes it right/people will listen. Reminded me of past bosses who simply would not listen to any idea but theirs.
Quinn was getting frustrated by the constant chatter almost every time he spoke and clearly had no respect ‘for this man’ to his left. He seemed to waiting for some substance, but got the same/usual talking points.
The panelists might as well as been some high school kids reading questions.
Poor performance all around.
- too obvious - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:53 pm:
Seriously? Is no one else going to mention the swastika on the book jacket that was clearly visible over Quinn’s left shoulder in every single shot?
How does that even happen?
- Roadbuilder - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 2:54 pm:
Rauner won because Quinn continues to look like a bumbling fool in his campaigning. An incumbent who did a good job doesn’t need to attack a candidate with no experience and bad track record outside politics. This is how bad Quinn has become - that he can’t just stand on his record, but must go negative and attack Rauner. All his talking points and examples of his “leadership” are covered by the NRI and IDOT scandals that plague his campaign and all his initiatives over the past 4-6 years have failed to help this state as a whole. He loses this “debate” because he can’t stand by his track record, nor put forth a positive plan for the road ahead. Rauner will continue to lead just by saying: “I won’t be that guy, so that’s better than you’ve had for the last 4+ years!”
- Nony - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 3:20 pm:
Too obvious-
It’s a well known book called “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”, and it was visible behind Rauner’s shot as well. Poor camera shot, but a non starter of an issue.
- Mokenavince - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 3:32 pm:
Quinn is over matched, though it looks like his lawn in his commercial could use his TLC.
Quinn is no debater,just a lot of bluster.
- walker - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 3:43 pm:
==Rauner by a cheek”==
Almost nobody saw it? Then I change my vote, “Quinn by a hair.”
No neighbor I’ve talked to has noticed that it even occurred.
- Honest Abe - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 6:46 pm:
It doesn’t really matter if Rauner can’t win cook county Quinn will win again anyway.
- Honest Abe - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 6:50 pm:
Just one question has Rauner displayed his tax returns yet and if not why would anyone trust him to be your governor.
- Very Fed Up - Wednesday, Sep 10, 14 @ 8:54 pm:
Honest Abe - Most voters are much less concerned with Rauners taxes and more concerned with their own. Quinn reached his hands into everyone’s wallets in the most deceptive manner possible and will lose his job because of it.