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Somebody isn’t telling the truth

Thursday, Jun 6, 2019

* Background is here if you need it. Springfield Bishop Thomas John Paprocki was asked today if he believed in the concept of separation of church and state. He said he did and said

This is not a case of the church trying to tell government officials what to do. It’s not intended as a political statement, it is intended, in fact it’s being issued after the vote here because it’s a statement really talking about the integrity of what it means to be a Catholic.

* From Speaker Madigan’s statement

I was notified by Bishop Paprocki that if I permitted the House of Representatives to debate and pass the Reproductive Health Act, I would no longer be allowed to accept the sacrament of communion.

…Adding… Tribune

Madigan and Cullerton would be allowed to receive the church sacrament again in Springfield if they make a public statement and introduce legislation to repeal the recently passed abortion bill, the bishop said.

That sounds like a church official “trying to tell government officials what to do.”

* Paprocki was then asked if he had reached out to Speaker Madigan about this topic

I have spoken with Speaker Madigan on a couple of occasions and some time ago we spoke about it in a general way. I called him last week just to basically remind him of the importance of this issue and it was a brief conversation.

…Adding… Bishop Paprocki also said he followed up with Madigan and Cullerton last week by sending them letters. Speaker Madigan’s spokesman said today that, as of this afternoon, no such letter had been received.

- Posted by Rich Miller        

30 Comments »
  1. - SAP - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:02 pm:

    Somebody = Bishop Paprocki


  2. - Demoralized - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:03 pm:

    ==This is not a case of the church trying to tell government officials what to do.==

    Umm, you told Madigan and Cullerton that if they didn’t pass a law to change things they could never take Communion. That sounds an awful lot like telling a government official what to do.

    ==It’s not intended as a political statement,==

    Of course it is. You cannot separate the two.


  3. - JT - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:04 pm:

    How bad is it when, what it comes down to you and Mike Madigan, people are more likely to believe Madigan’s version?


  4. - Demoralized - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:04 pm:

    ==really talking about the integrity of what it means to be a Catholic==

    If you’re requiring a government official to carry out their duties according to what it means to be a Catholic then you are in fact telling the government what to do. You are inserting Catholic doctrine into governing.


  5. - What's in a name? - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:06 pm:

    I think the concept of separation of Church and State is being misconstrued. It is the State that can’t tell the Church what to believe or more pointedly can’t tell its citizens what faith they are allowed to practice. The ministry routinely tell us how to live, what to believe and what is right and wrong. The great thing about America is we are free to get up and leave anytime we don’t want to hear what is said. I am not troubled in the least by the Catholic Church opposing abortion itself. I am troubled by them wanting to outlaw it. Persuade with the power of your argument not with the point of a sword.

    The problem here is that the Church in a moment of historic scandal resulting from the absolute moral failure of the Bishops chooses to personally condemn two individuals in a public forum.

    Bishop Paprocki may have succeeded in making Speaker Mike Madigan a sympathetic figure. That is no small accomplishment.


  6. - Union thug - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:07 pm:

    Isn’t this the same guy who performed an exorcism on tje state ove gay marriage?


  7. - NeverPoliticallyCorrect - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:09 pm:

    No it’s not. It’s telling the individual that the action they are taking is putting them in a state of unrepentant sin and the Bible is clear that communion should not be taken if a person has sin in their life that they haven’t dealt with. But, and I am not a Catholic, the only person who has the Biblical authority to withhold participation in receiving communion is the person, not a priest or minister, so let it be upon the Madigan or Cullerton to self-examine.


  8. - Christopher - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:12 pm:

    Not only is Bishop Paprocki trying to influence what the government does (blurring the lines of separation between church and state), he is passing judgement on Madigan as an individual - when judgement of others is not Paprocki’s duty or right.


  9. - Ole' Nelson - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:13 pm:

    I would believe Madigan every time on this one.


  10. - Rich Miller - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:17 pm:

    ===I think the concept of separation of Church and State is being misconstrued===

    I just quoted the guy. That ain’t on me. It was his direct response to a question about separation of church and state.


  11. - Pundent - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:17 pm:

    =it’s a statement really talking about the integrity of what it means to be a Catholic=

    Has Pope Francis or Cardinal Cupich weighed in? I’m not saying that Paprocki can’t have a view on the “integrity of what it means to be a Catholic” but if the consequence of passing a law the church doesn’t like means that you can no longer receive communion I would think that all of the internal partners would be aligned and the message would be coming from the very top.


  12. - TheInvisibleMan - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:18 pm:

    This type of “good lie” is exactly why I left the church years ago.

    The belief among many in the leadership, as well as clergy, is that it is OK to tell a lie to people as long as it is in service to the greater good(in their eyes).

    The greater good that I’ve seen them acting in favor of, has been the protection of the abusers of children. The lies and denials were in service of protecting the organization at all expenses.

    I think at some point they forgot real people are actually involved in their organization.


  13. - wordslinger - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:21 pm:

    Again, from the Trib:

    –Madigan and Cullerton would be allowed to receive the church sacrament again in Springfield if they make a public statement and introduce legislation to repeal the recently passed abortion bill, the bishop said.–

    That’s political, and explicitly telling government officials what to do. He’s horse-trading communion for specific legislation.

    Paprocki’s attempts at weasel-wording is cynical politics at its worst in every sense, as he’s not good at it.


  14. - Mr. Morris - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:22 pm:

    There is a separation of Church and State in this country through the establishment clause. We are free to choose our religion. Madigan and Cullerton are Catholic by choice. As the Catholic Church has its own rules and canons, one of which is Pro-Choice Politician can have Communion refused to them. Madigan and Cullerton chose to follow their political beliefs as is their right. The Catholic Church followed its rules as is their right. No issue if Madigan and Cullerton do not like canon law they are free to leave the Catholic Church.


  15. - CharlieKratos - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:23 pm:

    Calling the FFRF…


  16. - Back to the Mountains - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:23 pm:

    So are we to the point where we can start talking about taxing churches? I mean, if you wanna play the game, you can pay taxes like everyone else.


  17. - Occasional Quipper - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:23 pm:

    I think it’s just a matter of the bishop saying that to keep his Catholic constituency happy. I don’t think he was actually expecting the Speaker to actually do anything differently. He’s making a statement for the record so that he appears to be doing his job in the view of other Catholics. Much like the way politicians make statements for the record without any real expectation that it will change anything (such as during every floor debate ever held).


  18. - Answers - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:23 pm:

    Mr. Morris - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:22 pm:

    There is no separation


  19. - Nick Name - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:24 pm:

    Wow. Unbelievable.

    For the record, I believe Mike Madigan. Whatever his shortcomings, telling bald-faced lies isn’t one of them.

    Bishop Paprocki, on the other hand, lied last summer when he said AFSCME dues were donated to Planned Parenthood.

    First, it is a violation of federal law for unions to fund political activity with dues (which Paprocki, an attorney as well as a canon lawyer, surely knows).

    Second, AFSCME People (AFSCME’s lobbying arm, a separate corporate entity, funded entirely with donations - NOT dues) donating to Planned Parenthood seems wrong on the face of it. AFSCME and other public sector unions are fighting for their lives, not just in Illinois but across the country. I can’t believe any union would have any money to spare for Planned Parenthood.

    Paprocki is simply not trustworthy.


  20. - Answers - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:29 pm:

    Bishops do have the right to withhold communion. Churches have been involved in State business since the beginning of this country. There is no separation in the Constitution.


  21. - Answers - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:32 pm:

    Nick Name

    They did donate to planned parenthood. It is public record. I support Unions 100% but they shouldn’t donate to planned parenthood which they did


  22. - Lucky Pierre - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:32 pm:

    In order for a “threat” to mean anything Speaker Madigan would have to attend church, but he does not.

    “While he’s known as a classic Chicago South Side Irish politician and went to Catholic school (he graduated from St. Adrian elementary school, St. Ignatius College Prep in 1960, Notre Dame in June ‘64 and Loyola Law School in June ’67), Madigan does not go to church. Madigan said “once upon a time” he regularly attended services as St. Adrian and that “for a time” he “would be a regular attendee at St. Nicholas of Tolentine” but he does belong to a church or parish.”

    https://news.wttw.com/2019/02/04/13-revelations-house-speaker-michael-madigan-deposition


  23. - Pundent - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:41 pm:

    =In order for a “threat” to mean anything Speaker Madigan would have to attend church, but he does not.=

    Nice to see that you’re still triggered by the mere mention of the speaker’s name.


  24. - Nick Name - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:42 pm:

    ===They did donate to planned parenthood. It is public record.===

    Where would I find the record? Second, contrary to what Paprocki said at the time, not a penny of dues went to PP.


  25. - wordslinger - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:42 pm:

    –No it’s not. It’s telling the individual that the action they are taking is putting them in a state of unrepentant sin and the Bible is clear that communion should not be taken if a person has sin in their life that they haven’t dealt with.–

    You’re choosing to ignore the political deal that Paprocki proposed, as reported in the Trib.

    One more time:

    –Madigan and Cullerton would be allowed to receive the church sacrament again in Springfield if they make a public statement and introduce legislation to repeal the recently passed abortion bill, the bishop said.–

    Is that confusing? I can’t see how.


  26. - Demoralized - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:55 pm:

    ==In order for a “threat” to mean anything Speaker Madigan would have to attend church, but he does not.==

    lol. Good try.


  27. - Lucky Pierre - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:55 pm:

    For the record, I believe Mike Madigan. Whatever his shortcomings, telling bald-faced lies isn’t one of them.

    Here is Speaker Madugan’s statement after the budget was passed

    “Our budget has created a path to fairer taxes for the middle class. Our Fair Tax package will result in tax relief for 97% of Illinois taxpayers, and makes the wealthy pay their fair share so we can continue to hold the line on middle-class taxes, balance budgets, invest in critical services, and take necessary steps toward reducing property taxes.

    How can the Speaker possibly claim the middle class received” tax relief” in this budget that raised billions in taxes on working people for gas, automobile registration, cigarettes, parking, vehicle trade-ins, etc?

    What legislation allowed for lowering of property taxes? The pension spiking will create pressure to raise property taxes.

    That is bald faced lie


  28. - Demoralized - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:55 pm:

    ==Nice to see that you’re still triggered by the mere mention of the speaker’s name.==

    I don’t think his life would be fulfilled if he didn’t have that.


  29. - Demoralized - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 3:57 pm:

    LP

    You need to take a nice long nap. And hopefully wake up with something (anything) new to say.


  30. - Demoralized - Thursday, Jun 6, 19 @ 4:01 pm:

    ==the Bible is clear that communion should not be taken if a person has sin in their life that they haven’t dealt with==

    Then churches need not bother with giving Communion. Because I guarantee every single person has some sin they haven’t dealt with.


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