Referenda, schmeferenda
Thursday, Nov 6, 2008 - Posted by Rich Miller
* While there may or may not be a new lawsuit filed over the constitutional convention referendum…
Lt. Gov. Pat Quinn says he is considering whether to file a new complaint over the handling of the referendum or to continue seeking the Illinois Supreme Court’s clarification on the issue. Quinn says voters in numerous counties did not receive their blue pieces of paper, as mandated by a judge last month. […]
The Chicago Bar Association, meanwhile, does not plan to file another lawsuit over the results of the referendum, says Steve Pflaum. He’s the association’s general counsel and a partner with McDermott Will & Emery in Chicago.
An existing lawsuit is still heading to the Illinois Supreme Court…
However, the [Chicago Bar Association] does plan to ask the Illinois Supreme Court to review a lower court’s opinion to determine whether the ballot was unconstitutional and whether the remedy of a so-called corrective notice was inadequate.
The association, like Quinn, wants to clarify the process. “Our primary objective at this point would be to try to establish the legal principals that govern these Con-Con referenda so that when we do it again 20 years from now that we won’t have this kind of confusion and these kinds of problems,” he says. He adds a big however. “If the court agrees with us that the separate ballot requirement that is expressly contained in the Illinois Constitution was violated here, then it’s quite possible that the court would conclude that it would be necessary to redo this Con-Con referendum.”
Pflaum estimated that the association wouldn’t file the appeal with the Supreme Court for another month. And if the high court ruled that the referendum had to be redone, he says it most likely wouldn’t happen until the 2010 General Election.
I doubt the Supremes will order a do-over, but one never knows.
* In other referendum news…
Most voters in 10 Illinois counties said on Election Day that they think the state should pass a law permitting citizens to carry concealed weapons, but voters in another four counties rejected the idea.
Here are the counties which passed the non-binding concealed carry referendum…
Woodford, Saline, Ogle, Union, Jefferson, Jasper, Greene, Franklin, Effingham and Crawford
You’ll notice that quite a few of those counties are in or very near to Alan Keyes country. Here’s a county map to make your comparison a little easier.
In other words, those are probably not the best counties to make your case that the entire state is ready for concealed carry.
The referendum failed in these four counties…
Kendall, McDonough, LaSalle and Winnebago
Those counties, except for McDonough, have far higher populations than the areas where it passed.
Rationalization…
Rep. David Reis, a Willow Hill Republican who supports legalizing concealed-carry in Illinois, said Wednesday he thought the referendum questions weren’t worded properly. They failed to explain that concealed-carry permits would be available only to individuals who complete a training course, pass a background check and get certified, he said.
Maybe. The referenda did come somewhat close in Kendall and LaSalle, even though the NRA didn’t spend any money there. And it was defeated 56-44 in Rockford, which isn’t exactly overwhelming.
A gun guy pal of mine said the question should have been phrased something like this…
Should people who pass, FBI backgropund checks, classes on the use of deadley force and demonstrate prficency with a firearm be issued permits to carry a concealed firearm?
OK, maybe, but this round of voting probably won’t change many Statehouse minds…
Reis intends to introduce concealed-carry legislation in the General Assembly soon so lawmakers can consider it next year.
Good luck with that.
* Related…
* Defeated ballot questions likely to return
* ‘Con-con’ supporters weighing more legal action
* Quinn press conference video
- Phineas J. Whoopee - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:21 am:
That con con took a pretty good beating and Quinn should let it go. People still like Edgar.
- Ravenswood D. - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:27 am:
There will not be a con-con. PLEASE let this go, Rich. I am sick of seeing how devoted you are to this.
- jagsfan217 - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:31 am:
I’m for state-wide CCW.
If the criminals think you might be carrying a gun, there’s a good chance they will think twice before trying to jack you.
As it now stands, the bad guys carry concealed weapons & law-abiding citizens are not allowed to do so.
Instead of introducing more gun laws (which don’t seem to work as intended), why not let those of us who can pass the classes & background check carry a weapon?
Are my family & I not entitled to the added protection?
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:32 am:
All I did, RD, was report what was going on.
- doubtful - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:36 am:
If the criminals think you might be carrying a gun, there’s a good chance they will think twice before trying to jack you. -jagsfan217
Or there is a greater chance they will use violent, possibly deadly force to “jack you,” so they can steal not only your wallet, but also your piece and then yet another criminal is armed.
- jagsfan217 - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:43 am:
Doubtful-
I’d rather be armed than defenseless. I’ll take my chances.
If the bad guy gets to carry his piece, I want to carry my 9mm, too.
I’ve been threatened at knife-point once & I sure would’ve liked to have been grabbing for my pistol instead of my wallet….
- Speaking At Will - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:43 am:
== You’ll notice that quite a few of those counties are in or very near to Alan Keyes country. ==
With all due respect Rich, I think comparing any county, or population of people to Alan Keyes is unfair. Alan Keyes is a nutcase….a certifiable loony tune. The people in the counties that passed the referendum on R.T.C. are conservative, but not everyone in those counties are to the right of Genghis Khan like Alan Keyes.
Moving on, the case for Conceal carry is pretty cut and dried. When concealed carry is passed, crime rates go down. Yet we remain one of two states without some sort of right to carry.
If people in Chicago and the Metro East area dont want thier citizens to have the right to protect themselves then let them opt out of the proposal. The rest of us who grew up around firearms, and know how to use them, should have the right to carry, even if the metro population centers are against it.
I doubt Rep. Reis proposal goes anywhere, simply because we who want R.T.C. are out numbered, but I can still hold out hope.
- wordslinger - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:46 am:
Even with a Con-Con failure, I think some ambitious GOPer could start building a political base, a la Quinn, by spearheading a citizens’ initiative for Term Limits or Recall amendments of legislators.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:49 am:
===With all due respect Rich, I think comparing any county, or population of people to Alan Keyes is unfair.===
The majority voted for him. I don’t see what’s unfair about bringing that up now. Lots of folks continually bring up the fact that Cook County voted for Todd Stroger. Is that unfair?
- Anonymous - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 11:57 am:
“doubtful — Or there is a greater chance they will use violent, possibly deadly force to “jack you,” so they can steal not only your wallet, but also your piece and then yet another criminal is armed. ”
According to a Florida State U. study done in ‘97, lawful guns prevent about 6850 crimes……..every day. In less than 1% of the time is the defensive gun ever fired. LTC does reduce crime, IN has had it for 73 years.
TimB
- Downtown - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:01 pm:
The reality is that there is no solid evidence that CCW brings crime down even though CCW love to say it. What is humorous is to me is that the strongest CCW advocates are white men over 30 from very safe rural and suburban areas who are rarely victims of violent crimes. Face it boys you just want to be cowboys, and if that is the case just come on down to Englewood and get in the middle of some of our gang turf wars and see what you can stop with your concealed weapons. My guess is that you will continue to stay home in your nice safe rural communities. Stop being so paranoid. It’s fine for you to have your guns in your home, just don’t bring them into the public areas.
- jagsfan217 - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:01 pm:
CCW permit fees would be a great economic boon to the state as well.
Charge me $500 for my initial permit & then a renewal fee of $100/year. I’ll gladly pay the fee for a little added protection.
- jagsfan217 - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:10 pm:
“Downtown-What is humorous is to me is that the strongest CCW advocates are white men over 30 from very safe rural and suburban areas who are rarely victims of violent crimes.”
I fit that mold, except for the rarely victim part.
When the thug stuck the knife in my face at 5:30 AM at the Mobil station near downtown Springfield, I sure wished I had my pistol with me instead of it being at home.
I’d not be less paranoid now & the world would have one less piece of crap in it.
- Speaking At Will - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:16 pm:
Rich,
All I am saying is that Keyes has a reputation of being a loon. Whats the relevance of voters in certain counties voting for Keyes and voting for a R.T.C. referendum?
It hints at the idea that the people in the counties that voted for the R.T.C. referendum somehow are loons as well; when in fact there are good arguments for Right to Carry to be passed in Illinois.
Just sayin…
- Speaking At Will - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:19 pm:
== Face it boys you just want to be cowboys ==
Thanks for that in depth analysis.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:29 pm:
===All I am saying is that Keyes has a reputation of being a loon====
And Todd Stroger has a reputation for being a goofball.
- Gregor - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:43 pm:
I like the idea of trying for an amendment next to shorten the 20-year concon cycle to 10 years. Rod would be getting out of prison around then.
- Slick Willy - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:50 pm:
I support CC and think that Keyes is loon and Stroger is a goofball. What county do I live in?
- Ken in Aurora - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:53 pm:
doubtful - the other 48 states with CCW haven’t found that to occur. Why would Illinos be different?
- HoBoSkillet - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 12:53 pm:
SW - Will County
- doubtful - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:02 pm:
According to a Florida State U. study done in ‘97, lawful guns prevent about 6850 crimes……..every day. -Anonymous
Really? You want us to believe that lawful guns prevented 2.5 million crimes? Got a link on that?
Per the National Criminal Justice Reference Service, in 1994 there were approximately 593,000 gun thefts, so right there are over half a million crimes that legal guns were the root cause of. I can’t imagine how many other thefts went unreported in addition to that, and what crimes were then committed with all of those once legal guns.
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to gun ownership or in favor or repealing the second amendment, but if you think having a gun tucked in your shorts will make you less likely to become a victim of crime, you’re delusional.
When the thug stuck the knife in my face at 5:30 AM at the Mobil station near downtown Springfield, I sure wished I had my pistol with me instead of it being at home. -jagsfan217
I’m sure the ‘hero’ scenario plays out in your head on sleepless nights on repeat, but isn’t it just as likely, if not more, that you’d have just had your throat slit or a blade between your ribs? Who do you think was more ready, more calm in that situation? You, or the knife wielding thug? Sorry, but I don’t buy this story, and it’s one I’ve heard many times. If you’d had a gun, there’s at least as much of a chance you’d be dead and we’d have one more firearmed criminal on the streets.
By all means, defend yourself, it’s your right, but don’t be surprised if you fail in that endeavor.
- Skeeter - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:03 pm:
The concealed carry thing is interesting. There is part of me that wants to be for it, and then I read the comments of the gun nuts. Nothing like a gun nut spouting off on how they will shoot bad guys to make me want to go the opposite way and ban everything. The best thing the gun lobby could possibly due is to muzzle their own.
Speaking of muzzles — With regard to the FSU study:
I did my own study using similar methodology, and I reached the following conclusions: Keeping and bearing a German Shepherd Dog prevents 7281 crimes every day IN CHICAGO ALONE!
Now if we can just pass a concealed GSD law, along with the CCW, we can pretty much end all crime.
“Careful, let’s not rob that guy. That bulge in his jacket might be a concealed handgun. And his trousers look funny. He might be hiding a GSD there.”
- ValleyGal - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:09 pm:
There is absolutely no rationale for its failure in La Salle County. We also passed a new county taxing district so there must have been something in the water on Tuesday.
- ValleyGal - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:11 pm:
That would be the concealed carry advisory referendum.
- Speedracer815 - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:16 pm:
The referendum on Concealed Carry was poorly worded. More importantly, why are putting a civil rights issue up for referendum? Self defense should never be put a vote, by the populace or the politicians.
- Speedracer815 - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:21 pm:
- doubtful -
“Per the National Criminal Justice Reference Service, in 1994 there were approximately 593,000 gun thefts, so right there are over half a million crimes that legal guns were the root cause of.”
Oh really? So cars are the root cause of car theft, females are the root cause of rape, and victims are the root cause of murder?
Get a grip. Punish the criminals, not the law abiding citizens. 48 other states have some form of License To Carry and your paranoid delusions have not played out in any of them. Armed citizens save lives.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:27 pm:
This back and forth is getting boring, people.
- doubtful - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:35 pm:
Speedracer815,
I’m not blaming the victim for gun theft, so please stop putting words into my comments, especially such inflammatory and hyperbolic rhetoric like your rape and murder analogies. That’s uncalled for.
I only wanted to give numerical backing that legal guns are not only used to prevent crime, but are quite often stolen and then used to perpetrate crime. Do you think there is something inaccurate about that statement?
Get a grip. Punish the criminals, not the law abiding citizens. -Speedracer815
Try reading what I wrote and get a grip yourself. Pay particular attention to where I said I don’t support repealing the second amendment or where I’m not opposed to gun ownership.
Boy, someone says they had a knife to their throat and contemplates a much different outcome if only they had a gun, and I warn him that it could have made things much worse for him and they come out of the woodwork.
Pssst…I’m not trying to take your guns or anyone else’s guns away. And you have the nerve to call me the paranoid delusional.
- doubtful - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 1:36 pm:
This back and forth is getting boring, people. -Rich Miller
Sorry, I’ve said my piece, I’m done.
- Vote Quimby! - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 2:01 pm:
Crawford County, where I was raised, would vote to require all truck owners to have guns mounted on their vehicles, so I would not say it is a cross-section of Illinois. It’s a different world, there, man….as I found out driving across the state on US 50 on Election Day with my Obama bumper sticker. I can handle flip-offs and mean honks, but I am glad no one actaully brandished a weapon.
- ANON - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 2:02 pm:
With all due respect, breaking down every anti-con con argument and not objectively analyzing the obvious flaws in the pro sides argument is not “just reporting what was going on”. Come on Rich really is that the line of defense you are going to take?
You were clearly an advocate, which is fine, just dont try to hedge now it just looks bad.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 2:03 pm:
===You were clearly an advocate, which is fine, just dont try to hedge now it just looks bad.===
I was. I still believe it was the right thing to do. But please point to where I wrote in this piece that a new lawsuit or the current lawsuit should move forward.
- Been There - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 2:05 pm:
===Reis intends to introduce concealed-carry legislation in the General Assembly soon====
Now here it is, only two days after the election and Dan Kotowski is probably just calming down from his great re-election race, and Dan Reis is going to cause Kotowski’s blood pressure to shoot through the roof. Give Dan K. at least a week or so to enjoy some calm in his life before getting him all worked up.
- Rich Miller - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 2:08 pm:
Also, perhaps you misunderstood my earlier comment. It was solely intended to relate to this particular blog post, not earlier posts.
- Bruno Behrend - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 2:09 pm:
Re: the Con-Con case, I tend to agree with Rich that a re-vote is doubtful.
That’s why the vote margin should NOT be an issue.
Clarifying the ballot language issue, along with whether the remedy was adequate, along with the issues of how the remedy was administered are fair questions, and for every Illinois voter.
The first CBA complaint also raised some important issues regarding the process of how language is proposed and certified. Getting theses item addressed can serve to prevent this type of travesty from happening again.
That benefits all Illinois citizens.
- Bookworm - Thursday, Nov 6, 08 @ 9:34 pm:
Con-con lawsuit is OK IF it’s merely to clarify how the next con-con ballot should be worded, and not to force a revote.
Concealed carry: I’m not a “gun nut,” don’t own one, and only fired a gun once in my life (at some clay pigeons on a camping trip).
But, I believe people have a natural right to defend themselves, and therefore to own and carry guns, UNLESS some valid reason exists to deny them that right. Such reasons would include a criminal record, mental instability, or lack of training or ability to use a gun properly.
I presume any concealed carry law would include conditions for receiving a concealed carry permit, such as completing some kind of training and passing a criminal background check.
- Lynn S - Friday, Nov 7, 08 @ 12:20 am:
I’m from one of the “Alan Keyes counties”, also. Haven’t lived down there since college, and refuse to move back. It is a very different world in that part of Illinois, and as I reviewed the election maps on cnn.com, I had a thought: When one remembers the history of this great state, one must keep in mind that escaped slaves knew to go west in Illinois, not east, as easterners were more likely to turn them over to slave catchers or sell them back into slavery. If you look at the red/blue counties, the majority of the eastern counties are red, the majority of the western counties are blue. (Abe Lincoln represented some slaves suing for their freedom in eastern Illinois.)
I didn’t know that so many of these counties were doing a non-binding referendum for concealed carry (it certainly wasn’t on the ballot in the mid-Illinois precinct I vote in), but I’m not surprised that it passed.
My original county is not too far from Crawford, where Vote Quimby! is from, and I’m tellin’ ya, if Crawford County starts requiring gun mounts, my county will, too, just so they can go down and shoot some of those Crawford County boys!