Where do the guns come from?
Monday, Aug 27, 2012 - Posted by Rich Miller
* The Chicago police have a new study that shows almost a third of the guns seized by Chicago cops came from the suburbs, with another 13 percent coming from elsewhere in Illinois…
The research shows that some 29 percent of the guns recovered on Chicago’s streets between 2008 and the end of March were bought in the Cook County suburbs. Lake County, Ind., was the second largest source, accounting for six percent of the weapons, and other counties surrounding Chicago – including Lake County, Ill., and Will, DuPage and Kane counties – were also in the top 10 sources.
Two gun stores in suburban Lyons and Riverdale accounted for more than 10 percent of the guns recovered. […]
The study covers 17,230 guns the ATF successfully traced after they were recovered in Chicago. Many guns can’t be traced because of their age or other factors, said Seth Bour, the Crime Lab’s deputy director. […]
Ander said she was surprised by the percentage of guns that came from Illinois, rather than from neighboring states with comparatively relaxed gun laws. About 42 percent of the guns came from Illinois. Indiana ranked second, contributing 18 percent of the guns, and Wisconsin accounted for about 4 percent.
* And notice from this Sun-Times graphic that the vast majority - 88 percent - of all guns seized were handguns…
Military style assault rifles get a lot of publicity when people like Gov. Pat Quinn try to ban them. But they’re barely a blip in Chicago.
* Related…
* The Top 10 recovered firearms, used in a crime within a year of purchase
* The Top 10 recovered firearms, regardless of date of purchase
* 9 Dead, 28 Others Wounded In Weekend Violence
- 47th Ward - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 12:59 pm:
I can’t wait for someone to explain why asking stores to keep better records so we can find out who is purchasing guns is a threat to the 2nd amendment. Why shouldn’t we track guns to owners again? How exactly does this undermine 2nd amendment rights?
It’s clear that some FOID card owners are purchasing handguns and *somehow* these weapons are being confiscated by police from criminals. There ought to be a way to better trace these things without infringing on anyone’s rights.
- wordslinger - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:00 pm:
We all welcome the ISRA’s initiative to combat the scourge of straw buyers who abuse their Constitutional right to purchase guns by re-selling to murderous, drug-dealing gang-bangers.
As we all know, with rights come responsibilities.
- Cincinnatus - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:00 pm:
Can we stop talking about “assault weapons” now?
- OneMan - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:01 pm:
Since you can’t buy a gun in Chicago wouldn’t it make sense that the guns in Chicago come from near Chicago?
You can’t see a first run movie in Aurora, so if you were to poll where people in Aurora went to see the new Batman film I suspect the majority would have seen it in towns and cities next to Aurora that have first run movie theaters like North Aurora, Oswego and Naperville.
Just like I suspect in most towns that are dry the DUI arrests involve people who were drinking at bars near the dry town.
- He Makes Ryan Look Like a Saint - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:03 pm:
How many are stolen?
- 332bill - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:32 pm:
47th Ward, the stores already have completely adequate records to tell who buys each gun. However, any straw buyer with half a brain will removed the serial number before he sells the gun to a gang member. Without a serial number, the gun is untraceable.
- Cheryl44 - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:32 pm:
How many of the stolen guns were reported stolen?
- 47th Ward - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:36 pm:
OK 332bill, what about asking manufacturers to do a better job on the serial numbers then? Or create a ballistics fingerprint (if that’s even possible) for the guns they produce. There must be a better way to track the ownership of guns from manufacture to end user and everyone in between. We do this with cars and VIN numbers so surely it’s possible.
- Confused - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:40 pm:
I’m totally surprised that the gangs’ designated gun purchasers (the gang members with clean records) don’t want to drive to Wisconsin to buy their firearms if they don’t have to.
- Mighty M. Mouse - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:41 pm:
===Military style assault rifles … [a]re barely a blip in Chicago.===
However, they are quite popular with your occasional mass murderer, but fortunately people like that are relatively rare.
- Confused - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:50 pm:
So are box cutters and fertilizer bombs.
- reformer - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:51 pm:
A few years ago, Daley sent undercover Chicago cops into suburban gun stores attempting straw purchases. The gun lobby screamed holy hell.
The gun lobby also opposes a one-handgun-a-month policy to take the profit out of straw purchases.
So stings are bad, but so is a limit of a dozen handguns a year (24 if you’re married). That leaves us with the sorry status quo.
- Bigtwich - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:52 pm:
Other? What? Gatling guns?
- WazUp - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:53 pm:
And then there is Rich Miller clinging to his Mad Magazine and his BB gun!
- 332bill - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:57 pm:
If you remove all the VIN numbers from a car, it’s relatively untraceable too, though you could narrow the ownship down alot as the year, model and color would still be known. Guns have fewer identifiable characteristics. Some states require a spent shell be sent in when registering the gun. But a gun’s ballistics can easily be changed by changing barrels or using a file to scratch-up the barrel.
- 332bill - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 2:14 pm:
Reformer, how do you “attempt” a straw purchase? How would this catch a gun store doing anything wrong? A straw purchase is one were the purchaser buys the gun legally (fills out the paperwork & waits the required time), and takes posession of the gun, but does so for the sole purpose of reselling (illegal). The federal form specifically asks if you are purchasing the gun for yourself or for someone else. Obviously a straw buyer lies on that question.
- amalia - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 2:18 pm:
isn’t there a bill pending to require reporting of a stolen firearm? position of the ISRA/NRA?
- Ronbo - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 2:54 pm:
- Confused - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 1:40 pm:
“I’m totally surprised that the gangs’ designated gun purchasers (the gang members with clean records)”
I think you are quite right there Confused. Another thing that I noticed is that most of these guns that were confiscated are the cheapest lowest quality handguns on the market. Other than the few S&Ws, Rugers, and Berettas on the list most of those guns are junk.
I would suspect that those cheap guns are bought because they are meant to be disposed of right after the crime so why spend too much? It could also be because the prices on the handgun black market in Chicago puts the better quality firearms out of reach of the average street hood. Then again could it maybe be because the more valuable firearms that are being confiscated are not as often reported by the officers confiscating them. Who knows?
- Bemused - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 2:57 pm:
All those guns being made every year have to go somewhere. Gun Makers need new buyers on a steady basis, kinda like the tobacco boys who of course do not market to teens. If Obama wins it could drive sales up another ten percent.
It will be a cold day when guns or the IRS go away in the US. Too much money for too many involved.
- stevendmo@yahoo.com - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 3:25 pm:
The NRA called me (God knows why they thought I was their kind) a few months back to try to convince me that the Obama administration and the United Nations were busy “on American soil” trying to “attack” my rights as an American citizen to own firearms. The invading army innuendo, all fear and baloney. Why would they push that garbage? Easy. The NRA has become the dues-paying lobbying organization for the gun and ammunition manufacturing industry. Convince folks that Obama (or the mayor or the U.N.) wants to take away your guns, and they hope you will rush out and buy three, or ten, or twenty more to stash away. More money in the pockets of gun makers. If I were the gun-loving type, I’m pretty sure I would feel insulted that the NRA thinks I don’t know how to see through that scheme, especially since Obama has proven so weak on standing up the gun lobby thus far.
- Leroy - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 3:32 pm:
New York City has kept its murder rate and crime rate down by contuing an aggressive policy of stop and frisk.
- Todd - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 3:40 pm:
Well where to start?
Amilia yes there is a lost or stolen bill pending and we oppose it. Just had soemone whomhad a gun stolen from his house and the cops refused to take a report on it. Then CPD shows up demanding tomsee all his guns. Not gonna happen.
The Superintendant is now trying to ressurect Rahm’s registration proposal. Again not gonna happen. It is our position that it is none of the government’s business to keep track of me or my lawful firearms. Chicago once used registration to enact a gun ban. It took 30 years to undo that. We ain’t going back there. Not to mention, we are not going to pay a tax to keep our firerams and have to regiister them like sex offenders.
Maryland tried a ballistic database– didnt work and now they have defunded the program. The shell casing are being piled up in 55 galln barrells in a storage facility. Number of crimes solved ofer the multimillion dollar program? 0. and it is just another form of registration. Double no.
Several years ago I wrote a straw purchase law for the state. I don’t know how they are using it but we passed it. We also wrote the unlicemsed dealer act and passed it. We have worked with Tom Dart on the gun running statute.
So I have a couple more ideas about bad guys directing others to carry guns. But we will see.
The fact is, we have gone to court and prevailed. It is a fundemental individual right. We have since won 3 more cases against the city. And we have a few more pending. I know of at least 2 pending suits to allow people to open a gun shop n the city. They will loose those as well.
And from my looking at the legislative maps, our votes and margins will only increase.
The public is not supporting gun control these days in polling.
So the question is what is the mayor and Supt. Gonna do about their crime problem and manpower shortages at cpd? Or are they gonna try thisntired old playbook from Daley about blaming the gun guys?
- 47th Ward - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 3:58 pm:
===It is our position that it is none of the government’s business to keep track of me or my lawful firearms.===
But the IRS keeps track of your income and employment. Homeland Security keeps track of your travel habits. The Selective Service Agency keeps track of your draft status (just in case they decide to bring back the draft). The Department of Education keeps track of your student loans. The FDIC and Treasury keeps track of your savings balance. The IL Secretary of State knows how many and what kinds of cars you own.
But guns are somehow special because they’re mentioned in the Constitution? Well so is speech, but that hasn’t stopped the FCC from tracking lawful broadcasters and it hasn’t stopped the state and feds from tracking lobbyists.
Todd, aside from guns, are you at all outraged by the various other ways the government tracks you and your other lawful activities?
I just don’t think guns should be more protected than other things in life. And I think we should be talking about massacre control and not gun control, but this post was about what can be done to prevent straw purchasers from reselling weapons that end up in criminal hands in Chicago. Tracing them seems to be an obvious solution.
- Small Town Liberal - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 4:21 pm:
- It took 30 years to undo that. We ain’t going back there. -
Pretty sure you’re covered, Todd, it ain’t every day a Supreme Court ruling gets overturned. Now it just seems like you’re feeding your members paranoia.
Too bad, I’d really like to see a compromise between better tracking coupled with some kind of concealed carry. Oh well.
- amalia - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 4:23 pm:
@Todd, does the public oppose the reporting of a stolen firearm?
and I’m surprised, and dismayed, to hear that your group opposes that. it would be a useful tactic to distinguish between the so called legal purchasers and actual legal purchases. is there mandatory reporting for thefts from stores and merchandise in transit? would you oppose that if it is not already law?
what suggestions do you have for fighting the problem of those who purchase weapons over and over legally but sell them to criminals? after all, you keep going on about it’s the criminals who have guns, but we can see that legal purchasers are trafficking and it’s a significant percentage of the gun violence source.
and to do such work, the ATF needs tools, money and powers.
why does the NRA continually work to cut the budget of the ATF to do the work of fighting criminals who traffic guns? and before you start typing about the gunrunning/Mexico issue that Cong. Issa is investigating, the NRA opposed the ATF at every turn BEFORE that issue came up. for, oh, say more than 20 years.
While there is certainly much to be looked at in that one investigation, it is mind boggling that the ATF can do anything considering how the NRA has cut and regulated them into a corner.
- amalia - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 4:25 pm:
oh, and Todd, you might think again about using the term “gun guys,” since that undercover gang kid in the papers uses that term. and not in a good way.
- Kevin Highland - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 4:37 pm:
When I purchase a firearm from a Federally licensed dealer they are required to keep track of that sale, so that if a gun is found at a crime scene it can bet tracked from Manufacturer to Distributor to Point of Sale to Purchaser.
In the state of Illinois if I make a private sale to someone I’m required by state law to make a record of that purchase and keep that information for a minimum of 10 years. This record is to include Serial Number of the Firearm and the purchaser’s FOID information. That way when the police show up saying my gun was used in a crime and I can say I sold it to this person.
Personally, I only make private firearms transactions with people I know very well.
- Judgment Day - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 4:37 pm:
Having had the dubious privilege of getting to ‘work’ administratively with ATF, I firmly applaud the NRA’s efforts to reduce the ATF budget and regulate them into a corner.
IMO, the reductions are well deserved.
- RNUG - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 4:38 pm:
47th Ward,
There is no need for a central registry. In theory, if the gun was purchased and resold in Illinois, it can be traced by law enforcement.
The FOID law requires both business and private sellers and purchasers to maintain records for 10 years. Lawfully transferred weapons can be traced … it takes a bit of legwork since you have to go from person to person but it is possible IF the purchasers / sellers are obeying the law.
- amalia - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 4:59 pm:
@RNUG, but the problem is that some private sellers are repeatedly selling to bad guys but when found by law enforcement say that a firearm sought was stolen. and stolen does not have to be reported. plus, we live in such an information rich age, where there are all sorts of search engines and aps. it’s like the information search for firearms by the police is at the pace of the guns that were in use in the Old West. it’s not keeping pace with the current firepower!
- reformer - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 6:35 pm:
332bill
The way the CPD conducted the sting was to send in an undercover cop with a FOID card along with a rough looking character, talking about violence, who was obviously picking out the gun to be purchased.
That’s analagous to an adult bringing a minor into a liquor store and letting the minor pick out his booze while talking about the drinking party. Or a group of teens outside a liquor store while some adult comes in with money he was handed on the way in the store.
- wishbone - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 8:43 pm:
The more important gun violence story today was by David Heinzmann of the Chicago Tribune.
“Chicago police have suspended nearly 80 percent of their investigations into nonfatal shootings on the grounds that victims wouldn’t cooperate, according to a review of more than 1,100 cases through the first seven months of the year.”
“The bottom line is it’s frustrating. … That no-snitch code that’s still out there,” said Chief of Detectives Thomas Byrne. “Shootings are a precursor to a homicide.”
Lack of community support for punishing the shooters in their midst, and not a lack of gun laws is the real issue in Chicago. But the truth doesn’t mean anything to Jesse Jackson, Father Michael Pfleger or our esteemed mayor, because it would mean they would have to confront their constituents. That is hard work compared to picketing suburban gun dealers.
- RNUG - Monday, Aug 27, 12 @ 10:50 pm:
amalia,
As a former IT consultant, I understand the power of computer databases. If you don’t trust your government, there are times you want inefficiencies in information gathering. Even though I worked for government, I grew up in the 60’s and I still don’t trust my government …
And if someone was regularly saying guns were stolen, I’d be asking why there are no insurance claims …. which require police reports.
- Donnie - Tuesday, Aug 28, 12 @ 4:02 pm:
Todd made a point that no one has addressed. Several here have asked why the NRA/ISRA/IllinoisCarry/GunsSaveLife/Etc. would oppose “keeping better records” or otherwise registering and tracking gun owners even more strictly than Illinois does now.
Todd gave you the answer; gun owners have heard the appeal to “just keep better records” and “it’s common sense to know where the guns are” for longer than most of the commenters here have been paying any attention to the issue. Gun owners, including the NRA, used to compromise on these calls for cooperation. The NRA helped write the NFA registry law at the federal level, for instance.
Over and over, the “common sense” and the “just a little more accountability” mysteriously changed into bans. As Todd pointed out, Chicago’s famous ban on handguns was accomplished by tweaking their existing registration system, and Chicago was far from alone in that.
Now you see a problem that you think registration and tracking would solve, and it’s the most natural thing in the world for you to come to us and say, “Hey, let’s try this new idea, OK?”
But it’s not a new idea, and whether you realize it or not, we’ve seen it over and over.
Picture yourself landing on the shores of Troy ten years after the last Greek left and innocently offering the Trojans the gift you brought with you–a giant wooden goat for display in their central market–and you’ll have the idea. Maybe you mean well, and the Trojans would like to be helpful, but they’re not going to compromise on the matter of giant wooden gifts from seafarers.