Casey Stengel redux
Thursday, Dec 19, 2013 - Posted by Rich Miller
* Can’t anybody here play this game?…
Just days after saying Illinois would accept only online applications for concealed carry permits, Gov. Pat Quinn’s administration has announced it will accept paper applications, but not until six months after the process begins. […]
It was clear that the Illinois State Police, the agency that will be taking the applications and anticipates 400,000 in the first year alone, was not close to being ready for the change; one official balked when Leach said he would like to see the paper applications ready to go in March.
“I cannot commit to March,” said Suzanne Bond, chief legal counsel for the state police, which is responsible for accepting applications, conducting background checks and offering firearm training for the flood of residents expected to apply to carry concealed weapons.
Bond’s comments underscore a concern that things might not go smoothly next month when the law goes into effect.
“I think they are going to be pushed to do something sooner,” said Todd Vandermyde, a lobbyist for the National Rifle Association, said of the delay until July 1. “But it shows how incompetent they are.”
* Again, can’t anybody here play this game?…
Illinois officials are emailing and calling thousands of people, advising them to start over on their health insurance applications if they believe the federal government mistakenly referred them to Medicaid.
The latest wrinkle in the troubled enrollment process for the nation’s new health insurance system was announced Wednesday, just days ahead of a key enrollment deadline.
The federal HealthCare.gov website received more than 30,000 applications from Illinoisans who may be eligible for Medicaid, the government health program for the poor. That federal site has been plagued by glitches that now are mostly fixed.
Those 30,000 applications are the ones in question. Some Illinois residents who were referred to Medicaid believe they were incorrectly denied private health coverage, said Illinois Department of Insurance spokesman Mike Claffey.
It’s called governing. Do it, already.
- Rahm'sMiddleFinger - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 12:34 pm:
The healthcare.gov stuff is totally on the Feds. If we had our own exchange we wouldn’t have these problems. We would know who is medicaid eligible.
- RonOglesby - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 12:36 pm:
The process for applying for a CCL may not be to bad online but it will be somewhat limited. Specific versions of Java, must have a state digitial-ID/signature, must be able to scan in your training certificates and submit them as a PDF etc.
For those that have a scanner, a computer (that is up to date) and the ability to scan documents, convert to PDF, upload, get digitial IDs etc. Not so hard. For my father… UGH. They guy checks email and shops amazon and that is about it.
I know the ISP would love to make it all online, but then assuming everyone has a scanner, PDF conversion tools, etc, etc is kind of silly on their part.
- Mason born - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 12:45 pm:
I am amazed that they believed they could dictate paperless only in the first place. Seems like a print application should have been worked up all along. What i don’t understand was how no one at ISP realized that a percentage of the population would want a print app.
- Anonymous - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 12:46 pm:
“But it shows how incompetent they are.” Bite me Todd!
- Fan - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 12:46 pm:
So, does the 30,000 opposites stay in the National counts as part of this Grand Success story? And why would anyone complain about being slotted into Medicaid (free) vs. Paying for a policy?
- wordslinger - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 12:54 pm:
A paper app should have been anticipated from the get-go. Having said that, I’m not surprised it’s going to cause problems, and not necessarily because ISP is “incompetent.”
Take the example of a tax refund. If you file online and get direct deposit, you’ll get it a lot faster than if you request a paper check. And a whole lot faster than if you file a paper return and request a paper check.
- RonOglesby - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:01 pm:
What I find odd (and Yes I know they are building this new, right now) is that FOID apps MUST be mailed in, paper only, and the CCW rules would Have been ONLY ONLY… the disconnect is years apart.
- Demoralized - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:12 pm:
==But it shows how incompetent they are.==
I don’t believe it has anything to do with incompetence and everything to do with resources/staffing. This is going to be like the Obamacare thing. People already have a preconceived opinion and they are going to use anything and everything to attack the implementation. It’s something new and it will take some time to figure it out. Take a chill pill already.
- John - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:18 pm:
Legally speaking, ISP will probably have to provide and accept paper apps. It’s a legal process just like getting a passport or a driver’s license.
“But it shows how incompetent they are.”
Wow, some cop-bashing of the State Police by Vandermyde? Where was this tough talk and concern for gun owners when Rep. Will Davis was debating carry bill sponsor Rep. Brandon Phelps on the floor about Duty to Inform? Vandermyde was up in the gallery on his cell phone calling Phelps to drop the subject. The dynamic duo of IL concealed carry thought they would just slip DTI into the bill good old boys style and no one would notice.
- Demoralized - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:27 pm:
@John:
Give it up already will you. Your trolling about the DTI is getting really old. It’s borderline obsession.
- Todd - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:29 pm:
Part of the quote was cut off, but hey, thats the biz.
It was over a year ago that a Court ruled Illinois would have to have a carry law. If you go back 5 years to different versions of the carry bills, a lot of the requested information is the same. One would think that it is not that difficult to have a paper application ready to go a year later.
I get having to get a vendor and build a computer system. But 18 months to be able to do a paper application? Really. At first I was synical enough to think this was political and people were slow walking this. I no longer believe that. I think they really have no clue about how to build this. And I think they don’t want to. The are a law enforcement agency who does not want to be in the middle of dealing with civilians carrying guns.
They spent 30 days trying to get another agency to handle this after the law passed.
Florida has close to 1 million permits issued to people around the country and they still do it on paper, and get it done.
Then if you look at the rules and how contradictory they are and the holes in them, it becomes clear no one knows how to write a rule to deal with a major program. Just ask some of the JCAR members about how this whole thing has gone.
and anon, I sign my name to my comments. Grow a pair
- Todd - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:32 pm:
D — it looks like the work of either Mike Rizzo or a gentleman from Dupage. They have been pretty rabid about it. On blogs and even writing to HQ about it and me.
but thanks for sticking up on it.
- OneMan - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:32 pm:
Wordslinger….
But to use your example a bit, the last time I owed the state money it took them over a month to cash my check (even got a letter asking where my payment was since I filed electronically) when I called they said it took up to 45 days to process the checks… Seemed a bit daft to me to literally leave money laying around like that.
Would have figured day 1 you would have to allow paper apps…
- Demoralized - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:35 pm:
@John:
Also, what is your beef about having to tell a cop that you have a gun? I know all of my cop friends would like to know if somebody they pulled over has a firearm in the vehicle. It’s a safety issue. Period.
- Toure's Latte - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:36 pm:
==It’s called governing. Do it, already.==
You’ve said that before but just reading it now I spit coffee laughing. Well played.
- Demoralized - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:36 pm:
==but thanks for sticking up on it.==
You’re welcome. Merry Christmas.
- Mason born - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:52 pm:
Demo
“Also, what is your beef about having to tell a cop that you have a gun?”
That is a good question. I have always wondered what Moron isn’t going to tell the cop. If i get pulled over while carrying the first thing i intend to say before he even get’s the “Do you know why i pulled you over” spiel out, is i have a gun, it is here, and i have a permit. Why would i want to surprise someone who is already keyed up, armed, and mentally ready to shoot me?
- SG8 - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 1:54 pm:
Todd, what was cut off of your qoute that mitigates you calling an entire agency of hard-working men and women incompetent? Isn’t this akin to having the entire NRA labeled as nutjobs based on the actions of some of your memebers?
- Todd - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 2:31 pm:
SG8 — If I recall, I was how I didn’t think it was political or mean spirited that Or even foot dragging, that they don;t want to be involved and don’t have the technical expertise.
I have doen so many interviews over the last 72 hours they all blend together.
ANd make no mistake, I don’t blame the whole agency, just a few segments of it who have refused to correct problems, ignore the law and make stuff up as they go along.
Their legal Dept is giving out bad info, and who knows where the rules came from. Then you have the whole thing about fingerprints, vendors, paper applications, Java script, training requirements, non-answers to questions. . .
would you like me to go on. I’m less than impressed. I will say the Governor’s office has tried on many of these issues. And some of the people at ISP really are trying. But when their own people tell me how fouled up they are, and their actions don’t do much to dispell the notion, I think it’s warranted at some level.
- way south of chicago - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 2:34 pm:
Im not trying to be a smarta@@ here but could someone please explain on how duty to inform pertains to the Illinois concealed carry law? I took the Utah class a couple of months ago and that instructor said you dont tell the cop anything unless he asks…i guess i have visions of a gun to my head after being pulled over for a brake light out from some of these simpleton cops we have around here….
- Demoralized - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 2:39 pm:
==you dont tell the cop anything unless he asks==
I’m pretty sure that isn’t correct. You are required by law to tell the cop you have a gun. And why wouldn’t you?
- Mason born - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 2:47 pm:
Demo,
Actually went looking through the law and at least according to the copy on ISP website you are not required to inform the Officer until he asks. Again i fully intend to make it the first words spoken to him for MY safety.
- Judgment Day - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 2:48 pm:
“A paper app should have been anticipated from the get-go. Having said that, I’m not surprised it’s going to cause problems, and not necessarily because ISP is “incompetent.””
I’ll at least give the ISP a pass for not having a paper application ready. But ‘take months’ to add a paper application process as an option into an already coded and functional browser based application?
Nah. Doesn’t pass the smell test. Dealing with same type of issue, and had to re-code a couple of pages to (a) setup a separate maintenance ‘page’ to match the paper form (they already had a form they liked and worked for them), (b) Add a couple of administrative controlled table files, (c) Add a “Print paper form” button to the website for the outside user could get a blank form from the site, (d) Added a “Print Form” button to the online entry form so the outside user could validate their entry, (e) System backend (database) didn’t change, so ok there, etc. Took about a week, including the usual testing, bugs, etc. Yeah, should have done it in the first place, but there’s never enough time, etc. Olde adage - “No software survives intact first contact with the user”.
That’s a really, really simplified explanation, and probably missed on a couple of steps, but it’s not that hard. The biggest things I want to know are (a) who back at ISP is going to handle the entry work, and ‘what’s the plan’ to do so, (b) When you get the paper forms as part of the application, are they (ISP) setup to scan and attach the paper record(s) into to system so they can have a single point of control for any paper records - because you know there’s going to be paper created, and not just the paper application.
As for the State of IL - Federal government ACA referral issues to State Medicaid - Why is anybody surprised - ZeroHedge reported on this same issue almost 2 weeks ago.
Here’s the link: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-06/healthcaregovs-latest-glitch-unusable-medicaid-data
Strap in, folks - It’s going to be a bumpy ride.
- RonOglesby - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 2:59 pm:
@Demo and @Way south of Chicago
In the law it is that you are required to tell the officer if you have a weapon IF the officer asks. The best way to do this is NOT to blurt out “I HAVE A GUN”… The word itself is treated differently by cops on a stop. Its what they say to each other when a bad guy has one. Use “firearm” and just hand him your license and permit and say “I am carrying a firearm. How would you like to handle this?” Done deal.
The reason they have to ask was basically put in there by a number of folks from Chicago Cook County. That was NOT an “NRA” thing and the LEO side of the house wanted a Duty to Inform without the officer having to ask (it really is a compromise!)
- SG8 - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 2:59 pm:
Thank you Todd. “And some of the people at ISP really are trying.” That seems much more reasonable than denouncing an entire agency (especially those who will be protecting us).
- I'm Strapped - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 3:10 pm:
Memo to Suzanne Bond: Here’s a Caseyism you might want to memorize and keep handy-
“Don’t cut my throat, I may want to do that later myself.”
- John - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 3:56 pm:
Ron- now you’re misleading your own followers about DTI. NRA gave immediate notification to Phelps in his HB148 carry bill, which failed in May 2011. The only reason the DTI was modified to when the officer asks, is because black caucus Reps. Chris Welch, LaShawn Ford & Will Davis brought it up in floor debate. The record stands.
Con the Vandermyde cheering section if you can, but not everyone in the state is that dense.
Ohio grassroots like Buckeye Firearms have a bill to repeal DTI. Why, if it’s so great? Anyone who wants to know how DTI is going to work for taxpayers can watch the vid of Canton, OH cop Daniel Harless. A picture is worth a thousand words. Check this World Net Daily column of March 14, 2013, by Jeff Knox:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/03/dangerous-duty-for-concealed-carriers/
Vandermyde is trying pretend DTI was forced on him because he & Phelps sold out Otis McDonald. You got conned by the NRA lobbyist & a politician who wanted to pass a bill.
- RonOglesby - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 4:16 pm:
@John,
go home. good faith negotiations on things like Duty to Inform (which was required to get lots of LEOs to sign on to the bill) was not a bad thing. Trading things like that for Shall vs May is not a bad thing.
And I pointed out the chicago contingent was responsible for the modification…
If it were up to folks like you we would be stacking mags on roof tops. Chill out.
- RSW - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 4:27 pm:
The application is just one problem. The FAQs say you need a DD-214 to show you were honorably discharged from Armed Forces to get 8 hours credit. There are other honorable discharge forms the DOD uses but my instructor would not accept because it was not a DD-214. This is an illegal rule and a limitation of the wording in the statute.
- walkinfool - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 5:16 pm:
Not for anything, but in my experience:
Todd is not the kind of guy who “cons” people. He is well-known for being straightforward and direct.
And Ron is not the kind of guy who gets “conned”. He is known for doing his homework, and understanding the bill-making process.
- Freeze up - Thursday, Dec 19, 13 @ 6:26 pm:
Earlier today I thought the last thing I would be doing is defending Todd on CFB.
I have to agree with him that ISP legal is part of the problem. I have heard the complaint that ISP legal is “running the department” and I concur that they seem to have an inordinate amount of influence in operations. I have also heard that some of the counsel there seems to have quite an agenda and may not be equipped with the knowledge to get it done the right way.
Todd I ask that you always remember that the officers who work in the A.I.G. Building are there because they can’t make it in the field. The people in the field are already dealing with concealed carry and have been doing it for years and it has not been a problem at all. Can’t say much more about that.
ISP has spent millions on a reporting system called ICASE which is a disaster if you talk to the people saddled with using it. I am not surprised that the I.T. end of concealed carry is also a disaster.
Please be careful how you describe ISP to your membership. It isn’t the street cops who are to blame for what goes on in Springfield but they are the face of the agency when a Trooper has contact with one of your membership and it can make things difficult for all involved.
- Lincoln Lad - Friday, Dec 20, 13 @ 4:39 am:
I don’t see how the fed’s website failure relates to the Gov’s effectiveness at governing. Explain Rich, if you would…
- Steve - Friday, Dec 20, 13 @ 6:18 am:
This story says officials are calling people to tell them to re-do their Obamacare application. RIGHT. I’m gonna believe some voice on the phone.
Previous article, about credit cards, warns us not to believe a voice on the phone.