Capitol - Your Illinois News Radar » Wildy popular idea
SUBSCRIBE to Capitol Fax      Advertise Here      Mobile Version     Exclusive Subscriber Content     Updated Posts    Contact
To subscribe to Capitol Fax, click here.
Wildy popular idea

Tuesday, Apr 8, 2014

* From the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute’s latest poll

Legislative Term Limits

Would you favor or oppose a proposal to limit state legislators to a total of eight years of service, whether in the House of Representatives , the State Senate, or a combination ofthe two?

Strongly favor 61.7%

Somewhat favor 17.8%

Somewhat oppose 8.5%

Strongly oppose 8.6%

Other/Don’t know 3.4%

Leadership Term Limits

Would you favor or oppose a proposal to limit how long state legislators could serve in leadership roles – such as Speaker of the House or President of the Senate – before they stepped down to let other legislators lead?

Strongly favor 65.1%

Somewhat favor 17.6%

Somewhat oppose 8.3%

Strongly oppose 6.3%

Other/Don’t know 2.7%

* From the Institute

In statewide Simon Polls going back to 2010, between 75 and 80 percent of Illinois voters surveyed have supported legislative term limits. Support for leadership term limits — in offices such as Speaker of the Illinois House and President of the Illinois Senate — has been just as strong.

“Regardless of your position on term limits, it’s clear the idea has support. If organizers are able to get the measure on the ballot – and it’s not clear the courts will allow that – it should be easy for them to win approval,” said David Yepsen, director of the Institute. […]

Support for term limits is strong in every demographic, geographic, and ideological subgroup in the Institute’s poll. For example, while Republicans were among the groups most likely to support the term limit proposal (89.9 percent strongly or somewhat in favor), even an overwhelming majority of Democrats approved of it (73.4 percent strongly or somewhat in favor).

In the 2014 Simon Poll, the wording of the term limit question referred to a combined eight - year limit of service in either or both houses, in order to reflect the proposal pushed by the group Term Limits and Reform, backed by Republican gubernatorial candidate Bruce Rauner. Previous versions of the question referred to limits of five terms in the Illinois House and three terms in the Illinois Senate.

“Regardless of whom you ask or how you phrase the question, legislative term limits are extraordinarily popular among the Illinois electorate,” said Charlie Leonard, a Simon Institute visiting professor who supervised the poll. “Unable or unwilling to limit their own representatives ’ terms through the ballot box, the voters seem to hope a blanket constitutional amendment will do the job for them.

* And here’s a different take on leadership term limits, which came during a committee debate over a proposed constitutional amendment

The amendment was sponsored by Sen. Matt Murphy, R-Palatine. Sen. Don Harmon D-Oak Park, asked Murphy if he knew how many leaders, past or present, the amendment would have applied to. Of course, as an attorney, Harmon already knew the answer to his question when he asked it. That answer was only two: House Speaker Michael Madigan, D-Chicago, and former Senate President Phil Rock, D-Oak Park.

Murphy said he started toying with the term-limit idea after his first year in the Senate. That would have been 2007, a year that good ol’ Rod Blagojevich went particularly amok. He kept the legislature in session all summer before Madigan essentially told the House to go home and stay there until he called them back.

“It was my first experience with the concept of the consolidation of power in Springfield in just a few hands,” Murphy said.

Harmon had a different take.

“Without strong legislative leaders, can you imagine how awful that summer would have been that you experienced with a rogue governor and no one in the legislature to stand up and say no?” Harmon asked.

- Posted by Rich Miller        

  1. - Ghost of John Brown - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 11:41 am:

    Harmon assumes that without someone in long term leadership that the legislature will be bowled over. I’ve been around a lot of legislators. Most are “Type A” personalities. I don’t think finding someone to stand up to the Governor will be the issue.

  2. - Bobby Hill - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 11:46 am:

    I agree with Ghost. The meek usually don’t run for public office.

  3. - OneMan - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 11:52 am:

    Right on ghost….

  4. - PublicServant - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 11:52 am:

    How bout we leave it up to the voters that vote for their legislator? Just a thought.

  5. - Mittuns - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 12:07 pm:

    Term limits divert legislative power from an accountable, elected representative to unaccountable, unelected, and entrenched lobbying groups and partisan staff.

    If people think lobbyists run the show now, wait until this happens. They are bad news for democracy.

  6. - Norseman - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 12:08 pm:

    Of course this is popular with the masses. If you can’t vote the rascal out, just time him/her out. Given so many bad legislators, it’s hard to argue with that logic. All I can do is think about the good ones we would lose and along with their institutional knowledge.

    As for the leadership limit. The powers given and assumed by the leader will remain even if the man/woman changes. I doubt that the use of those powers to control the process will not change with a new leader. As touched on by Ghost, there are plenty of eager future leaders learning how the power is wielded by the current one.

  7. - Langhorne - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 12:33 pm:

    Dont forget the one thirdreduction in senate didtricts. Downstate districts will be HUGE. If this passes wout independent redistricting, maps could be even worse.

  8. - Formerly Known As... - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 12:37 pm:

    === and no one in the legislature to stand up and say no? ===

    New leaders emerge from and are formed by such challenging moments.

  9. - Demoralized - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 12:48 pm:

    Apparently many are not familiar with the fact that we already have term limits. Ever heard of an election? You can limit anybody’s term you want with those.

  10. - elginkevin - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 1:07 pm:

    I signed the petition, but I haven’t decided my position. I would like to have the debate brought on by proposal of such a change.

  11. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 1:20 pm:

    You Blagojevich defenders are delusional.

    Tom Cross not only failed to stand up to Rod Blagojevich, he criticized Madigan and the Democrats for considering impeachment.

    Watson tried to stand up to Blago, but got steamrolled.

    Madigan not only stood up to Blagojevich, he withstood criticism from media outlets across the state, who largely sided with Blago.

    And for better or worse, there is absolutely, positively, no way that pension reform would have passed this past session if not for the power that leadership wields to protect their members from politically difficult votes.

    Nor marriage equality.

    Anyone disagree?

  12. - cicero - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 1:31 pm:

    Quinn’s Cutback Amendment in 1980 was the last constituitonal amendment that was supposed to “cure” what ailed the legislature. It was popular too and the public ratified it. Informed opinion is that the House became a less deliberative body, as individual members lost initiative and one-man rule has existed ever since.

    Unfortunately, term limits will pass as well if the ISC lets it on the ballot. Predictably, the public will be no happier with the General Assembly a decade from now than they are today.

  13. - Downstater - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 1:31 pm:

    Term limits are good for the State of Illinois. Would like to see them at the federal level, also.

  14. - Logic not emotion - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 1:34 pm:

    Maybe one option would be to ensure that the Speaker or Senate President cannot also hold another position of great influence within his or her party (i.e. can’t control the purse strings).

    I think one only needs to look at the maps to know that the democratic process itself has been subverted by those in power to preserve / enhance that power. Once that occurs, it becomes the responsibility of the electorate to curb that power and restore the balance.

  15. - Dirty Red - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 2:12 pm:

    I’m under the assumption you would also see strong support from these respondents in favor of a measure to do away with lame duck sessions. Under that premise, if you don’t want to give lame ducks even two months to vote, why would you support giving them two YEARS?

  16. - Jimbo - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 2:52 pm:

    Term limits give more power to lobbyists and unelected staff. That isn’t what concerns me about Rauner’s amendment. What concerns me is the increased veto override threshold. Do people really not understand that this amendment is an end run around Madigan. With the increase to 2/3, the governorship becomes a truly powerful post. Anyone not worrying about his candidacy thinking, well Madigan will keep him in check, clearly hasn’t thought about his amendment. Me, for the first time in my life I’m worried that Madigan will have less power. lol

  17. - Jimbo - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 3:01 pm:

    Rich, do you have a prediction on the constitutionality of the term limit amendment? It seems that with the size changes, and the veto threshold, it changes both structure and procedure of the lege. Would the term limit portion be struck and the other two remain, or since the sigs were ostensibly gathered by focusing on the term limits, would the whole thing be tossed? I’d like to hear your take. Thanks.

  18. - Ghost of John Brown - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 3:04 pm:

    A couple of you have made comments about term limits giving more power to lobbyists and unelected staff. Here are the states that have term limits. Some are definitely not on the honor roll while some are very well run states. Where is your proof that the lobbyists will just take over?

    On the contrary, when I walk around the Capitol and I see 2-3 Representatives share one staff member, who do you think are writing the bills now? Retired English teachers? Maybe they use a Ouija Board to write the bills since you believe that lobbyists aren’t writing them today.

  19. - Chicago Cynic - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 3:31 pm:

    I’m good with term limits for leadership but think it’s a bad idea for rank and file. If you’re going to do them, make them fairly broad - say ten years in the House and eight or twelve in the Senate.

  20. - LincolnLounger - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 4:21 pm:

    I hope it makes it onto the ballot, and I’m voting yes. How could things get any worse?

  21. - Capitol View - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 4:24 pm:

    leadership limits maybe - term limits generally, terrible idea.

  22. - A guy... - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 4:31 pm:

    The time has come. I’d prefer 10 years. I could and will support 8. To everyone who says Elections are term limits, they simply aren’t. Especially in entrenched areas where the new fix is in every 10 years with a new map. If you like it the way it is, you must be benefiting from it. That puts you in a very distinct and not too well thought of minority.

  23. - dupage dan - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 4:49 pm:

    Ask folks why they like the idea of term limits and they will typically refer to the guy in another district. When you talk about the politician in your own district, not so much. Why else does someone like MJM get re-elected every term. The folks in his district love him.

    Someone smarter than me (pretty much covers the universe) posted here that with term limits in place the power likely shifts to long term staffers and lobbyists. Institutional memory/power is what it’s all about.

  24. - Demoralized - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 4:56 pm:

    ==To everyone who says Elections are term limits, they simply aren’t.==

    Then lets get rid of elections altogether. I’ve suggested this idea before: have a lottery like jury duty; when your number is called you serve a term. I would think those that favor term limits could get behind this idea since they don’t like the electoral process apparently.

    ==If you like it the way it is, you must be benefiting from it.==

    No, but we do favor democracy where we can vote for whomever you wish.

    Those that favor term limits are nothing more than whiners who want to change the rules because they can’t get their way at the ballot box. There are people in office I would prefer not be there. But if the people want to vote for them and put them there that’s their right.

  25. - Demoralized - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 4:59 pm:

    Where we can vote for whomever WE wish (not you).

  26. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 7:40 pm:


    I do not believe the court has the authority to sever a ballot initiative.

    As to the Constitutional question, I will say this.

    Read Eric Zorn’s post at the Tribune today.


    Rauner’s amendment is clearly unconstitutional, but that does not necessarily mean the Court will not cave to popular opinion….although term limits were more popular back in 94, I think.

  27. - Just The Way It Is One - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 8:00 pm:

    Term limits–sounds good–just like it did when PAT QUINN pushed his OWN Referendum Drive on this idea way back in the 1990’s…!

  28. - Tough Guy - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 9:36 pm:

    I might be more inclined to support this if it also include the statewide offices. Not sure why they want to limit the legislature but not the executive.

  29. - Yellow Dog Democrat - Tuesday, Apr 8, 14 @ 11:22 pm:

    @Tough Guy -

    Clearly would be unconstitutional, and

    Jim Thompson was elected to four terms

    Edgar probably would have won a third.

    If they want to put an end to “career” politicians, prevent elected officials from running for another office without stepping down from their current job first.

    No more Gongressman running for governor,
    State Senator running for Congress,
    State Rep running for State Senator
    Mayor running for state rep
    Alderman running for mayor
    Dog catcher running for alderman.

  30. - Jimbo - Wednesday, Apr 9, 14 @ 8:05 am:

    Thanks YDD. I don’t know why I thought they could sever it, I just thought that if Rauner’s team is as good as we say, there has to be an end game other than name recognition. Maybe they think he’ll stoke anger at entrenched pols if it is struck down, but it seemed to me like he really doesn’t want to be a gov that has to cater to MJM. If he got his increased veto threshold, his line item veto would be ultimate authority and he could slash whatever he wanted to the bone. Isn’t that what we all believe he wants to do?

  31. - low level - Wednesday, Apr 9, 14 @ 1:54 pm:

    States with term limits still have career politicians. Look at CA - the same types of folks running for office (lawyers, real estate agents, the wealthy) in other words those who can afford to put a hiatus in their jobs to serve in office for 8 or so years.

    Also, once they are termed out of office, they simply run for the next office they are eligible for.

Sorry, comments for this post are now closed.

* More shenanigans!
* Saturday campaign money report
* *** UPDATED x2 *** Shenanigans!
* Tribune drops bombshell on Biss running mate
* Reader comments closed for the weekend
* Rauner: "Madigan has rigged the Democratic primary for Pritzker"
* New Ives radio ad claims Democrats are trying to help Rauner, while Brady does Rauner robocall
* *** UPDATED x1 - DGA responds *** Elections board says DGA should file disclosure for Ives ad
* SUBSCRIBERS ONLY: Jones; IEA/IFT; Reis; Mitchell; Edgar
* ISRA, Drury both try to claim Raoul inserted "poison pill" into gun bill
* Pro-life group launches GOTV effort for Lipinski
* *** UPDATED x1 *** Rauner opens new online track against Ives
* Erika Harold still can't remember comments, but says "I was wrong"
* Rauner calls Madigan "a unified force of bad, of evil"
* Sen. Duckworth gets involved in another state central committee race
* *** UPDATED x2 *** Has Pritzker gone to ground?
* Illinois House Bill HB 4900 Wastes Government Resources
* McCann, barred from SGOP caucus meeting, claims Rauner threatened to "destroy you and your family"
* *** UPDATED x1 *** Caption contest!
* Obama mailer kerfuffle in Lipinski district
* Rauner attended Quincy campaign event after Quincy veterans' home presser
* After spending millions in Dem primary, Rauner accuses "Washington liberals" of "hijacking" the GOP primary
* Yesterday's stories

Visit our advertisers...








* Gov. race more fierce, costly as primary nears .....
* Gov. race more fierce, costly as primary nears .....
* Illinois governor race more fierce, costly as p.....
* Pritzker defends putting $69.5 million of his f.....
* Illinois governor race fierce, costly - The Sou.....
* Illinois governor race more fierce, costly as p.....
* Gov. Rauner Spotted In BN On St. Patrick's Day .....

* Illinois governor race more fierce, costly as primary nears
* Judge gives FBI more time in alleged serial killer case
* Michigan shipwreck hunters find schooner that sank in 1873
* Immigrant reunited with child months after separation by US
* SIU consolidating student housing to west side of campus
* Illinois lawmaker seeks to abolish townships to lower taxes
* Police presence across Illinois upped for St. Patrick's Day
* EXCHANGE: Local married couples work together peacefully
* EXCHANGE: Woodworker carves out a niche with patience
* Man gets 65 years for killing Cook County investigator

* As primaries loom, downstate Democrats look for a way back
* Pritzker defends putting $69.5 million of his fortune into campaign
* Illinois governor race more fierce, costly as primary nears
* Madigan backs Dem central committee incumbent in 13th
* Trump factor looms large in Illinois governor primary campaigns
* Ray LaHood brokers deal for O'Hare expansion
* McCann says Rauner threatened to 'destroy' him in 2015 over vote
* Rauner looking into state buying vacant nursing home in Quincy
* Luciano: What if Downstate dumped Chicago and formed new state?
* AP review: Push for gun laws faces resistance in most states

* Amazon search team in Chicago next week
* Amazon HQ2 search team visiting Chicago March 21-22
* Pension mess? You'd hardly know it from 2018's gubernatorial candidates.
* The Best New Event Spaces in Chicago 2018
* March madness arrives in guv, assessor races

* Minivan crashes into squad car, injures two officers and driver in Englewood
* Horoscope for March 18, 2018
* Car fleeing police crashes in Lawndale, sends 9 to hospitals
* Loyola looking to make a statement for mid-major programs: ‘Respect us’
* The short-handed Bulls fight to the end, but too much LeBron James in crunchtime
* Cubs split spring training doubleheader with Indians, 300 miles apart
* Holy shot! Another miracle finish for Sweet 16-bound Loyola
* The ‘force’ with Mark Hamill at Dublin’s St. Patrick’s Day
* Man killed estranged wife then abducted kids, prompting Amber Alert: prosecutors
* Vatican bows to pressure, releases retired pope’s letter

* Turtle racing's had a long, slow burn in Chicago
* For 'Black Panther' fans, what to know about the suburban hamlet of Wauconda
* Jordan Poole's buzzer-beating 3-pointer sends Michigan past Houston, 64-63
* Trump-linked data analysis firm harvested 50M Facebook profiles without user permission
* Loyola headed to Sweet 16 after Clayton Custer hits game-winning shot in final seconds
* LeBron James' triple-double too much for Bulls as Cavs pull out 114-109 victory
* Rocky toppled: Clayton Custer's do-or-die shot lifts Loyola over Tennessee and into Sweet 16
* Man killed in fall from Loop high-rise
* Bridge collapse victim's uncle rages at 'incompetence' as bodies removed from wreckage
* Bears free-agency tracker: Colts and Jets trade shakes up top of NFL draft

» A Feisty Debate, Offshore Accounts — And Some Side-Eye
» WBEZ’s Chicago and Illinois News Roundup: March 16, 2018
» The Week in Review: Pritzker Slammed Over Offshore Holdings
» Web Extra, The Week in Review: American Airlines Changes Stance
» How Parking Ticket Debt Punishes Black Drivers In Chicago; The Best Illinois Movies
» State Week: Rauner's Gun Veto; Dem's Mean Debate
» #642 Songs About the Music Industry & Antibalas
» March 15, 2018 - Full Show
» Illinois Has Issues: Gov Candidates Talk Marijuana
» Rauner: Replace Legionnaires’-Stricken VA Home With New ‘Ultra-Modern’ Facility

* As primaries loom, downstate Democrats look for a way back
* Pritzker defends putting $69.5 million of his fortune into campaign
* Statehouse Insider: Sadly, the primary campaign is coming to an end
* Bernard Schoenburg: My predictions for Tuesday's primary election
* Our View: A recap of The State Journal-Register’s endorsements
* Bernard Schoenburg: Guessing who will be celebrating Tuesday night
* Madeleine Doubek: Time to end gerrymandering in Illinois
* United Way: Reporting results that matter
* Illinois governor race more fierce, costly as primary nears
* Madigan backs Dem central committee incumbent in 13th

* Birth Announcements
* Linda B. Saunders
* Mary Belle Osman Morgan
* Nancy June Morris
* Donna Sue Felts
* Mary Griebel
* Steve Kosco
* Edward 'Buzz' Crowell
* Alan R. Fisher
* Carol A. Bridgewater

* Softball: Walinski, Schuda power a Carmel victory
* Girls soccer: Wauconda shuts down Johnsburg
* Evanston's run leaves Larkin with fourth place
* Baseball: Wizceb helps pitch Vernon Hills past Hoffman Estates
* Belleville West edges Whitney Young in OT

* 14th District candidates agree: Global war...
* ICOs Draw Fire at US Congressional Hearing...
* What to Expect When Congress Talks ICOs To...
* 7 Democrats talk strategy for winning Tues...
* 14th District Dems voice opinions on immig...
* Minor says he could drop out of race befor...
* ELECTIONS 14th Congressional Dist. candida...
* Kennedy blasts Pritzker for “buying off” b...
* In the news
* 4 face off for Democratic nomination in 16...

* Congolese mother and child finally reunite......
* Congolese mother arrives in Chicago, still......
* Sen. Durbin receives Healy Award for servi......
* House backs school safety bill in Florida ......
* Senator Durbin Receives Alumni Award...

* Congolese mother and child finally reunite......
* Schatz to convene field hearing on false m......
* Congolese mother arrives in Chicago, still......
* Duckworth on Zinke's improper use of Japan......
* US government denies Afghanistan War veter......

* State of the Legal Industry: A Leading Innovator Concludes that Inefficiency Prevails
* Wednesday, March 14, 2018
* Monday, 3/12/2018
* Online University Programs and Microcredentials Enhance Professional Learning
* AI is the new electricity, says Coursera’s Andrew Ng
* Bolstering Academic Integrity in the Online Classroom
* Here’s 5 Reasons Why You Should Study An Online MBA In 2018
* 3 Technologies that Education Needs, But Have Not Been Created
* Coursera to offer degrees from UK universities
* Thorner: Curse of Poet Emma Lazarus Lives on in Lady Liberty

* February Flooding Information
* IEMA Urges People to Prepare for Severe Weather
* Governor issues state disaster proclamation for flooding in Iroquois, Kankakee, Vermilion Counties
* Winter Storm Warnings for Areas Along and North of I-80
* IEMA Encourages People to Prepare for Earthquakes

* Sunday debate: Notch vs full bezel
* AR company Avegant has replaced its CEO and laid off more than half its staff
* 9 reasons to be cautious with blockchain
* Nnedi Okorafor is writing a comic series about Black Panther’s Dora Milaje warriors
* Trump-linked data firm Cambridge Analytica harvested data on 50 million Facebook profiles to help target voters
* Jakub Rozalski’s Howling at the Moon is a beautiful art book that merges real and fictional worlds
* Dozens of states are now considering plans to keep net neutrality rules

* Cool with No. 2? Avi paces Sox 5-2 win
* Lefty Ross making case for bullpen spot
* Shields honored to be Opening Day starter
* Shields honored to be Opening Day starter
* Shields to start for White Sox on Opening Day
* Shields to start for White Sox on Opening Day
* Your guide to pronouncing all those tricky White Sox names

Main Menu
Pundit rankings
Subscriber Content
Blagojevich Trial
Updated Posts

March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004

Blog*Spot Archives
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005


RSS Feed 2.0
Comments RSS 2.0

Hosted by MCS SUBSCRIBE to Capitol Fax Advertise Here Mobile Version Contact Rich Miller