Everything Rauner has proposed has an anti-union poison pill buried in it somewhere. Once the poison pill is removed, he no longer cares about his proposal; the proposal was just there to leverage public acceptance of the poison pill.
* The Question: Mostly agree or mostly disagree? Take the poll and then explain your answer in comments, please.
What’d be more interesting — and might even gain more support across the state — is if Rauner simply issued a blanket condemnation on unions — all unions.
He simply doesn’t — and can’t — stand for collective bargaining. It stands in the way of authentic profits.
He wants all collective bargaining in Illinois made illegal.
Just say it. Be honest and forthright about where you stand so that folks who aren’t reading these bills or following the drama can at least hear the soundbite.
Voted “Mostly Agree” and when - RNUG - commented it, I responded as such then too.
“Why?”
The “yellow” HGOP votes, the way Rauner is requiring his bills be followed as such.
Also, “Example?”
Rep. Franks on his property tax bill;
“Mine starts in 2015, Rauner’s starts in 2016. The governor’s has prevailing wage, mine does not. Mine does not allow for an increase in the debt extension where his does”
I mostly agree, and it’s a good observation by RNUG.
If only Rauner would be upfront about his real agenda, we could debate it on the merits. But even he knows it’s a bi-partisan political loser, which is why he refused to mention it during the campaign.
The fact that he intentionally misled the voters about his anti-worker agenda ought to make a lot of Illinoisans mad.
It may be true. But how many “unrelated” bills over the years have had pro-union provisions stuck in them: Utilities, IDOT, Tollway, Prevailing Wage Act, Public Private Partnerships, Procurement, Gaming, Municipal Code. Big labor was in the sole drivers’ seat in Springfield for so long that they’ve forgotten the art of compromise. So there’s some pushback now. Big deal.
RNUG is right on. Adding…
Each year, local governments must approve a prevailing wage resolution. If they don’t pay prevailing wage on local projects, they risk losing federal funding. Since many capital projects include federal funds, would it not be a little dangerous for Illinois to force the prevailing wage issue?
This dog has been a non-starter from the beginning.
Term limits themselves are not anti-union. But the only reason why it’s on the “Turnaround Agenda” is so the Governor can claim his agenda wasn’t passed because of self-interested self-dealing politicians when most of the agenda will not be passed because it’s anti-middle class, anti-union nonsense that is simply bad policy in the first place.
But Rauner and the Tribune will continue to win the message war as long as the message is about “Mike Madigan and the politicians he controls.”
The legislators who want to fight back need to make it about Rauner’s lack of a plan and the fact that he’s done basically nothing:
Said he would veto an unbalanced budget
Proposed a budget that was not balanced
Has not introduced his own bills
Said all the compromise bills don’t do enough
Said he will veto the budget without reforms
Said the reforms don’t do enough
Has not offered any pension reform solutions
What has Rauner actually done in 6 months besides pout, call them names and say “no” ? Leadership?
Voted “mostly disagree.” Why? Because it’s simply not true.
Term Limits and Redistricting speak for themselves. If there is an “anti-union poison pill” in there, I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is.
What’s the anti-union poison pill for workers’ compensation reform? Is it anti-union to want to decrease costs to employers by upping causation standards? Does that make all of the Democrats who voted for the 2011 reform anti-union?
Tort reform? What union is that pill going to poison? What are the anti-union parts of that legislation?
Arguably the only piece of the Turnaround that’s still on the table that has any so-called “anti-union” provisions at all is this property tax freeze. And even then, that characterization taxes the credulity of the credulous.
RNUG doesn’t always get it wrong. But this is a swing and a miss.
“Mine starts in 2015, Rauner’s starts in 2016. The governor’s has prevailing wage, mine does not. Mine does not allow for an increase in the debt extension where his does.”
Of course RNUG is correct and its completely rational from the Governor’s perspective. Collective bargaining rights in the public sector are a cost driver, eliminate that driver then all you are faced with is the market for employment or what is called in economics the marginal utility of labor. Governor Rauner totally understands this and used it in relation to his corporate acquisitions. There are limits on far down wages and benefits can be driven, but Illinois wages for public sector workers is well above that level currently.
Mostly disagree. In regards to property tax freeze, the additional items address the fact that such a freeze will have an impact locally, and those provisions would allow local units to effectively address funding as they see fit. It gives more local control over how money is spent, and absolutely relates to the overall purpose of the legislation.
==In regards to property tax freeze, the additional items address the fact that such a freeze will have an impact locally, and those provisions would allow local units to effectively address funding as they see fit.==
There’s a lot of other ways to do that, and if the consequences of your idea are so catastrophic that you have to abridge workers’ rights, you probably need to completely rethink your idea.
==Does that make all of the Democrats who voted for the 2011 reform anti-union?==
Pro-reform Dems certainly took grief from the unions for that vote.
- Mortimer Duke - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:28 pm:
I’m on Team Rauner. We are not against the middle class. Well, let me be more specific. We’re not against the true middle class. You see, the corrupt Democrats have artificially elevated many people into the middle class that do not belong there. They should be in a lower class. Who pays for that? Me, Rauner, and other “superstars.” We’re tired of seeing our peers across Lake Michigan in Indiana with larger yachts. Rauner’s turn-back-the-clock agenda is pure genius.
Term limits and redistricting would both hurt the party that Rauner believes is bought-and-paid for by the unions. Notice that his term limit plan didn’t touch executive offices.
== you probably need to completely rethink your idea.==
The problem with your line of thinking is you believe the baseline for current standards isn’t controversial simply because those terms were agreed to by previous administrations. If you think the business community, local governments, and and Governor is going tag renewing that and cave to using that baseline assumption moving forward, and simply impose more taxes and mandates without reform of existing mandates and regulation, you probably need to completely rethink yours.
- Hawkeye in Illinois - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:31 pm:
BINGO —the only sincere Rauner aspiration is to eliminate labor unions in Illinois within four years and increase (lower-paying) jobs with little or no benefits in companies that can be snapped up by “superstar” venture capitalists, gutted and resold at a premium.
Voted mostly agree. Rauner wants to be Scott Walker but he doesn’t have the same GA. Therein lies the problem. What’s unfolding now is plan “B” since plan “A” (have a groundswell of support with local turnaround resolutions) failed.
“There are limits on far down wages and benefits can be driven” Exactly right. And if the business owners can’t drive the wages down to what they want, they close the plant and move to Mexico/China/India. And somehow that’s good for Illinois?
That depends on the union worker, hoe much available to pay them, and the burden/causal effect imposed on the entity paying them to get more money to pay them.
- thunderspirit - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:39 pm:
=== Exactly right. And if the business owners can’t drive the wages down to what they want, they close the plant and move to Mexico/China/India. And somehow that’s good for Illinois?
Then try doing that with State government. ===
Illinois: Outsourcing Your Agencies Since 2015!
Willy, I’m not sure what you think you’ve proven. That addresses about one-fifth of what I said. No less, it points out the only place (and I admitted as much) where perceived* “anti-union poison pills,” still exist in the Turnaround Agenda.
So that leaves the other four. In order to substantiate the claim that “everything that’s been introduced” includes these provisions, you’re going to have to do better than one out of five.
- Simon B. Sinister - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:47 pm:
Is anyone really suprised. It’s obvious to me that BVR sent away for and received his Koch brothers activity kit with motivational VHS tape and decoder ring. Since then he’s been following the easy step by step (repeat ad nausea if message not accepted by mass of humanity) instructions toward the goal of making Illinois and the world a far better place for BVR and his circle jerk of cronies and swells.
===… “everything that’s been introduced” includes these provisions,…===
Read the answers; “Mostly”
===Term Limits and Redistricting speak for themselves. If there is an “anti-union poison pill” in there, I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is.===
How about term limiting Union supporting legislators, and the maps that “seem” to favor Pro-Union legislators be limited when possible.
I’m convinced Rauner is not at all concerned about getting re-elected. It’s a VP nod/White House push or bust for him, and he has to make it look like he’s busting heads along the way. Otherwise, he’ll be just an(other) ineffective governor.
It’s at least 4/5, unions hate the idea of worker’s comp reform unless it’s provider/insurer side. And I don’t think unions love tort reform, either. But I’ll concede that that one’s more about soaking the trial lawyers.
Mostly Agree, but is anyone surprised? He truly views unions as an improper influence in government and wants to eliminate or severely limit that. Nothing wrong with it.
Unions hate the idea of causation as a condition of workers compensation? Is fraud an essential element necessary to provide a middle class life? Because most of the people I know didn’t need to defraud someone to get here.
Whatever the percentage difference you think the prevailing wage is too high, send me your extra of the same percentage. So if it’s 10% too high, send me 10% of your earnings…lol.
==It’s at least 4/5, unions hate the idea of worker’s comp reform unless it’s provider/insurer side==
So if you have a position that unions disagree with, even if the basis for your position has little to nothing to do with unions, then it’s simply because you’re out to get unions? LOL
===So if you have a position that unions disagree with, even if the basis for your position has little to nothing to do with unions, then it’s simply because you’re out to get unions? LOL===
You asked, which of the 5 you listed is anti-Union. So there’s that…
== Is fraud an essential element necessary to provide a middle class life?==
“Fraud” is not the exact and exclusive argument of a causation standard in a workers’ compensation system. The idea behind a “No Fault” Workers Compensation system is that it doesn’t really matter what caused the employee’s injury (provided it was actually in the course of work), he still can’t work, he still has medical bills, and we still don’t want him to suffer. You may disagree with that (I think it sounds nice, but am willing to compromise on it, or trade it away for something else), but it has nothing to do with fraud.
PC- agree with term limits being anti-democratic, which is funny coming from the guy who loves just yapping it up about “empowering voters.” Which he apparently wants to empower them by placing constitutional restrictions on who they can vote for.
==So if you have a position that unions disagree with, even if the basis for your position has little to nothing to do with unions, then it’s simply because you’re out to get unions?==
I’m not sure what “the basis” for that position is; Rauner has said very little about workers comp, besides the fact that he wants it, but no, not that version of it.
But the fact that his idea of reform seems centered around Causation without considering insurer-side reform (which would ideally make sure the savings are actually passed along to businesses) is telling.
It’s RNUG, of course I agree. There are very few people that I agree with on most issues and RNUG is one of those few.
I thank God for RNUG
- Re: Work Comp - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:16 pm:
Over 100 years ago labor agreed with business to enter into a no fault insurance system where pretty much every employer bought we insurance. In exchange for no causation being required employers got rid of the risk of being sued for millions and losing everything. If business wants to get rid of workers comp. and go back to the tort system, I am sure labor would be glad to accept a causation standard. As it is now, there is no causation standard but the compensation is limited. The real problem is the insurance companies charging too much for insurance and the doctors charging double or triple what they get from health insurance.
Hey Willy, I’m over here. That wasn’t me Anonymous at 2:01. But that Anonymous does make an excellent point. You have to cut the bologna awfully thin to turn Term Limits and redistricting and worker’s comp reform into “anti-union” ideas. As long as your standard for what constitutes anti-union remains so absurdly low, it should be easy to find anti-union poison pills in EVERY piece of legislation. Ironic coming from a forum where people are constantly harping about “playing the victim,” no?
===That depends on who’s doing the negotiating and whether such “negotiations” are voluntary, or mandated.===
Nope. I’m asking. “So the negotiated prevailing wage is hurting?”
Yes. Or no.===
Yes it is hurting. The municipality or governmental entity does not get to negotiate the wage rate. This hurts because prevailing rate is not just the wage “on the check, it is also the fringe benefits which includes pension, health and welfare, apprenticeship schools, CISCO etc… While $40 dollars an hour doesn’t sound like much, but when you add the fringes, the numbers gets at or above $70 an hour real quick. That is why it hurts.
Also, there is no minimum job amount for the rate to kick in. So if a county board member needs to have their office painted, it is going to going to cost $70 an hour plus materials.
===pension, health and welfare, apprenticeship schools, CISCO etc…===
Fringe benefits?
Didn’t Governor Rauner, himself say he wants more trade schools? Now “who” will pay for those?
===While $40 dollars an hour doesn’t sound like much, but when you add the fringes, the numbers gets at or above $70 an hour real quick.===
So, the negotiated prevailing wage, factoring in what Rauner wants in trade schools, and also paying the negotiated “Fringe Benefits” that include training, and education that is just too high? It’s negotiated.
===Also, there is no minimum job amount for the rate to kick in. ===
Let’s do “task earnings”! You list your duties, we’ll decide what is worthy of your pay at a certain level.
It’s an hourly rate. Negotiated.
You send me that 20+% you want to cut of your income to me, then I’ll be swayed.
The prevailing wage is the wage paid by a governmental agency for work that must be hired from outside the agency.
If a county board member wanted to paint his office using county employees, the prevailing wage would not apply. If the painter is an outside contractor, the prevailing wage applies.
The prevailing wage is built into the unit prices for a construction project. If anyone thinks that reducing the prevailing wage will reduce the cost of construction, please think again. The difference will end up in the contractor’s pocket as a Christmas bonus. The local agency will pay the same prices regardless of the prevailing wage.
I voted Agree, because the Governor makes so many speeches, and travels with the messages of “local control,” “union bosses”, workers comp or lawsuit limits and makes them mandatory BEFORE he even negotiates on raising revenues somehow. He is the one who ties them together like RNUG commented.
The second element of proof is that he seems to not care that his efforts fail at either the local government levels or in the suits now pending in court.
Conclusion: the point of this is to draw attention to his pro-business agenda and not to actually passing a bill or winning a lawsuit. He is truly fighting for principles (the wrong ones in my opinion) but he would rather lose these battles than give in on his issues.
Compromise does not seem to be one of his options during this first 6 months in office.
===Everything Rauner has proposed has a anti-union poison pill buried in it somewhere. Once the poison pill is removed, he no longer cares about his proposal… ===
The end game is not only to destroy labor unions, but also to make it possible for billionaires to control legislatures and Congress, pay lower wages and fewer benefits to middle-class workers, and further increase corporate profits and tax breaks for the very wealthy. This is the turnaround agenda.
Disagree. It’s not a poison pill, it’s called looking at both sides of the ledger. That’s something IL politicians haven’t done for 30 years now and it’s why we’re broke.
Rauner is a business man. He understands give and take. If you’re going to freeze local government revenue streams, you need to provide them with more flexibility to control expenditures.
This is the same as him saying a minimum wage hike needs to be tied to workers compensation reform. Give and take. Balance.
Increase costs here, decrease them there.
Freezing property taxes without doing something to reduce mandates would be irresponsible.
There seems to be an assumption that the Governor’s animus is directed equally toward all unions, no matter the variety. I don’t quite see it that way. When you peel back the onion, you find that his principal argument seems to fit only the public unions. They are the unions who contribute to politicians, who in turn set salaries and benefits for government workers, who in turn are paid for with public money.
Set aside the broader call for reform of worker’s compensation rules, a staple in the Republican playbook for as long as anyone can remember (yawn), and you are left with the special case of the public unions.
In contrast, the craft unions, i.e.,electrical workers, carpenters, steam-fitters, etc., etc., clearly contribute to the common good with apprenticeship training, retirement programs, and quality work. Given this, the Governor’s position in the ongoing debate might benefit were he to simply acknowledge as much. In fact, it would be helpful if the Governor were to break bread with the craft unions in order to seek mutual accommodations.
- the Other Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:09 pm:
I’m rather amused at the argument that worker’s comp — it even has “worker’s” in its name! — is something that labor unions (you know, the guys who represent workers) don’t care about.
But to the question: absolutely agree. Why? because I read this blog and see the proposals — it’s factually true.
“Poison pill” works because these added or combo-items virtually guarantee that there will be no legislative agreements. The term really doesn’t apply to the extent that Rauner really wants these, and they are not simply designed to be deal killers.
I give you Local 150, IUOE, as an example of Rauner’s disconnect.
Collective bargaining is huge for all unions, I’d think.
Right now, if I’m choosing the Governor or Local 150, it’s not even close; Local 150, and their history of supporting Republicans, and Republicans understanding why they support them.
K. Soze, good point … Now if the Gov could just get this pesky little law changed, wouldn’t that be grand - - - for him?
(5 ILCS 315/2) (from Ch. 48, par. 1602)
Sec. 2. Policy. It is the public policy of the State of Illinois to grant public employees full freedom of association, self-organization, and designation of representatives of their own choosing for the purpose of negotiating wages, hours and other conditions of employment or other mutual aid or protection..
Keyser Soze, the Governor’s promotion of local right to work zones, elimination of prevailing wage and elimination of PLAs in addition to workers comp are all aimed directly at the trade and other private sector unions.
I have worked with several communities downstate and my experience with prevailing wage is it can be a real burden when they try to stretch the taxpayers dollar. Typically, there is a 40-45% premium on prevailing wage on sidewalk projects for example. In small towns, you only have a handful of contractors that do this kind of work, so the taxpayers $10,000 really only buys $6,000 worth of market rate product. Small towns are only going to spend so much each year for sidewalks, so every year they in effect get 40% less.
You can talk about depressed wages, but on the street in downstate rural communities, 1/2 to 2/3 of our tax bills are going to support the schools. Small municipalities are typically in the 10% range of a tax bill and face statutory limits on levies. A real problem in downstate is that the EAV’s are also typically flat as well. So there is only so much you can do to go to that property tax well from those very same middle class people that will suddenly be driven into poverty if prevailing wage is not there.
There are a lot of pressures on small towns throughout the state. I don’t want to criticize labor, but at the end of the day there is a real struggle for some communities to find a balance. All citizens expect high levels of local services when they pay their property taxes (and they will call and let you know) that they expect quality streets, beautiful parks, perfect sidewalks, around the clock police and immediate fire response.
- Former Merit Comp Slave - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:25 pm:
Totally agree. Remember at the beginning of the campaigning when Rauner started the union bashing? Then he laid off long enough to BS state employees and the public in general and to ensnare those employees who were very upset with Quinn. That, to me, said it all. I tried to point this out to fellow employees as well as other drastic changes in his stances. Sometimes you have to stop your complaining long enough to hear what is being said (then not said, then backtracked etc).
Agree. In Rauner’s own words, repealing prevailing wage is “the single most important thing”.
If Rauner’s longer term strategy is to play directly to the voters through negative ads, (particularly those voters who just want their taxes cut) he is missing an opportunity. He had/has a chance to say he froze real estate taxes. That initiative used to belong solely to him. But today, the Democrats have taken that initiative away from him, and can respond to his attacks by noting that the governor is the person who wouldn’t agree to the Democratic proposal to freeze your real estate taxes.
When things start to go south in a couple weeks, I’m sure Rauner will say how every state employee he meets comes up to him to thank him for shutting down the government.
He’ll tell everyone with a smile that the number one — number one — issue facing Illinois is how happy every one is that he’s finally shaking up Springfield.
He’ll talk about the standing ovations he’s receiving wherever goes.
And then he’ll say the number one — number one! — issue facing Illinois is Madigan and Cullerton.
- Kooky in Kalifornia - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:31 pm:
Agree, this ain’t California
- Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:44 pm:
@ BW- Very thoughtful post and many good points. Kudos.
I agree with much of what you state, as 60% of the tax bill for several small communities, our district is highly sensitive to these costs and how it impacts local buying power and the ability or willingness (same outcome though) of our local contractors to participate in our projects.
For some of our more common projects, especially asbestos abatement, it is the cost of regulations other than prevailing wage, not required for private sector work that also significantly to the cost of doing business. Asbestos abatement costs us 75% more than the same work in the private sector due to additional testing and abatement procedures. They do not change the outcome, and the same final air quality tests are used. We are also required to have an architect or engineer stamp everything. Schools are quite a cash cow (in my opinion) for the architects and I am told they have a nice little lobby. We conducted a simple window replacement project and the architect fees added more than 10% to the costs based on fees and project costs.
Prevailing wage is one piece of the puzzle that is part of the cost for public sector work, but it isn’t the entire puzzle.
He’s waging total war against everything he doesn’t like, especially unions, and hoping that after the next 18 months of chaos, voters reward him with a GOP legislature. If, that is, there’s still a state government. He loaded up his administration with Laffer clones and they’re nothing if not thorough in their scorched earth tactics — we’ve seen that for the past 30 years.
- forwhatitsworth - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 4:43 pm:
Even though union membership has diminished over the years, unions still represent the backbone of the “middle class” that the reactionary forces want to defeat once and for all. Question: Once the upper class wipes out the middle class, how will that benefit the upper class? I still don’t understand this aspect of the class war. There has to be more to it than just ego. Another feudal system?
JS, for once we agree on something. I used to work in the school Architect/Engineering industry, but it became more about dirty politics than about doing good for the kids.
When a Project approach or scope couldn’t be justified, I wasn’t willing to stand up there in front of the board and tell them to spend a million dollars to solve a $10,000 problem.
Once I was asked to evaluate a school’s HVAC system, and I found the indoor air handling units just needed some cleaning, a new cooling coil and new fan motor to work well. This would only cost about $10K to fix. The maintenance manager told me they already allocated funds for complete replacement, including ripping down and reconstructing the new walls in the mechanical room, for about a million dollars, so that’s what he wanted me to recommend. I found out he had a “relationship” with the contractor who was almost certain to get the work, and he was paid overtime whenever the contractor was working. With my fix, there was no need for OT.
I suggested the architect get someone else to do that project.
What REALLY frosted me was that architects were providing T&M services to schools to teach them how to deceive the public into approving a referendum for capital work of questionable need.
I certainly wanted no part of that.
I once was able to get onto my school’s building and finance committee. Another board member, who now is a state Senator, was keeping track of how much my input was saving the district. In the first two months, he estimated I’d saved the district over $70K while meeting the project’s goals.
The superintendent and committee chair told me not to come for the third month. I was not “invited”.
I sometimes wonder how much less expensive and effective our schools would be if the administrations and boards actually cared about efficient and effective use of taxpayer dollars. What I do know is that spending is power in politics, and anyone diminishing that spending in something as political as public education quickly makes an “enemies list” in most suburbs and Chicago.
I can assure you this is not an isolated case, JS. I hope your district is run differently.
The governor seems singularly focused on breaking the unions and sticking with his far right wing agenda…much to his own detriment and to the detriment of the rest of the state. I had initially given him points for being more astute than he appears to be, but he seems to be quite content to fiddle as Rome burns.
I do not understand why the property tax freeze would need to be pegged to legislation to allow local governments to pay wages below the market rate for skilled workers.
Never mind that it ignores both the labor market, and the requirements that are tied to most federal monies of federal grants.
You have to hand it to Rauner for concealing his overwhelming hatred for unions during the campaign. An astonishing (to me) number of unionized state employees admit to having voted for him. One told me last week “I didn’t know he felt like this.”
I read Rauner as hating all unions. The prevailing wage is aimed a non-state employee unions- plumbers, electricians, carpenters, roadbuilders. Those guys are his target now.
I admit that Rauner, like Scott Walker, gives the police and firefighter unions a pass. (Unfortunately those unions don’t seem to know much about solidarity, but I digress.
)
But otherwise Rauner hates ‘em all. Public or private.
Worker’s comp and tort reform are certainly Labor issues. Those injured on the job tend to be rank and file guys on the streets, not the ceo’s at their desks.
@AB- We no longer use an architect and are utilizing an alternative process. We have greater cost and quality control, the contractor doers all design and proposal work before we pay a nickel, no contingencies, no overages so they take on substantial financial risk and have to guarantee operational or energy cost savings. They don’t hit their number and they pay us. It is called performance contracting.
The sad thing is that I had to fight with the ISBE bureaucracy for 6 weeks to get the go ahead to use the process. Why? Because architects at the ISBE were the gate keepers.
Many of school fiscal/cost issues are NOT driven by unions but by the business speacial interestes that are constatnly trying to put their hands in our pockets. these are the same people that complain about taxes and want TIF’s and enterprise zones. These forms of business welfare drain our revenue sources and pass costs on to the average homeowner. Most people do not pay close enough attention to the issue and blame it on teachers and administrators.
Thanks JS for recognizing the real problems. It sure isn’t the skilled workers that bust their ass to get jobs done.
- Last Bull Moose - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 8:58 pm:
My experience is that work rules, seniority and bid rights, and difficulty in using rewards and penalties tied to performance have more affect on costs than wages. It is very difficult to manage union workers through union supervisors.
Rauner’s frontal assault on wages is off target. The inability to manage the workforce is crippling the State.
Mostly agree. But “poison pill” is not a good descriptor for Rauner’s packaging strategy in my opinion. I think he would agree.
A poison pill is added to something desirable to make it undesirable. The classic example is a defensive strategy used to ward off a hostile corporate takeover (Guv knows all about this). A target company, ripe for takeover and dissection, enacts a shareholder rights provision that would strip it of value in the event of a takeover. The target is no longer desirable and the takeover is averted.
Rauner’s proposals follow a Trojan horse strategy. His true purposes, ones that would be unpopular or politically difficult, are hidden within a shell with lots of popular appeal. The purpose is deception and disguise. The handle, Property Tax Freeze Proposal, sounds good to the average over-taxed citizen, but makes no mention of the restrictions on collective bargaining and the prevailing wage exemption within. If the strategy works and the proposal is enacted, the average citizen won’t learn what’s inside until it’s too late.
Do I have that about right, Guv?
Many, but not all, of Rauner’s proposals are anti-union. He certainly has a bee in his bonnet against unions, but the common thread I see involves enriching the wealthy at the expense of the middle class. Term limits and redistricting are simply means to that same end in the context of Illinois.
- Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 10:43 pm:
Right on JS Mill! Our skilled trades are not the problem. I worked with all the trades in a prior life and the CDB rigamole ran up the tab, not their work.
So a political playa makes a great career and life-changing-for- generations money, utilizing very dodgy business practices.
He retires. What’s he going to do with the rest of his life, with the security and independence that comes from all that dough?
The Bill and Melissa worldwide thing? Pillar of the local community? Search for truth?
Or will he dedicate himself, and spend millions of his and his cronies money, dedicating himself to lower millions of other peoples standards of living?
Do you get this guy? He played and milked the system here to make hundreds of millions, yet now that he’s retired, the system sucks, and the regular schmucks who weren’t making the huge insider scores that he did need to be smacked down.
Dr. Freud, a little help? What’s this guys problem?
- former southerner - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 5:19 am:
Word, I can’t help you with Freud because that is the wrong discipline for me.
Some, like the Gates, want to share their good fortune while others turn from small bullies with little wealth to large bullies once great wealth is achieved. Wealth doesn’t turn a good person bad but it can certainly make a bad person worse.
More disturbing are the enablers who identify with and help these bullies to further their power, perhaps one of the motivations for Goya’s etching, “The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters”. I am sure OW appreciates the use of Owls in that piece
JS, just be careful that your contractors have professional licensed engineers and architects doing their designs for them. I’ve made a lot of money over the years fixing “contractor designed” projects that didn’t work and were total abortions. In other industries its called EPC or design-build projects, but in those cases the contractor runs the show and often its based on “guaranteed maximum price”.
Politically connected firms abuse this all the time, especially in Chicago.
A case in point is the latest addition to McCormick Place. I understand that the scope called for over 120 air handling units, but the contractor cut it down to 85 and cut a LOT of corners to do it, and, worst of all, what they proposed wouldn’t meet the design criteria. Eventually they had to change their design and it resulted in delays, but, as always, the taxpayers wound up footing the bill.
A lot of whether it’s prudent to go design-build depends on the skills and experience of your in-house staff. If they understand the codes and what needs to be done and can provide oversight, fine. If not, it can be a disaster. It got so bad in CPS for a while that Hizzoner Daley made all CPS projects get a permit through the city because so many “contractor” designs weren’t meeting safety codes.
For small jobs its not a bad idea, but if you have complex control or large equipment involved, you’re probably better off doing direct hire of architects and engineers.
“In contrast, the craft unions, i.e.,electrical workers, carpenters, steam-fitters, etc., etc., clearly contribute to the common good”
State workers don’t contribute to the common good? Man, I got no words that I can use on this blog for you. Know that I’m saying them to you right now. Screaming them! I hope the coming shutdown effects you or your family in the worst way.
If your really and engineer, you’d know that very often it’s not union labor that gets the public jobs. It’s non-union labor that just gets a big raise for the same quality of work they do commercially for the same work.
I guess I’ve had different experience than you. I’ve had bigger problems with quality of work and schedule with the union outfits in the Chicago area, as well as “featherbedding” to get extras and change orders for OT.
Sadly about the only thing I remember from a required art course in middle school, it must have made quite an impression. Heading for a career in marketing and consulting in risk management art hasn’t played much of a role in my life and I certainly have no talent in that domain.
AZ- The one component of the work they actually do is the design. They have a large team of certified engineers and architects. All regulated by the capital development board (if that means anything). This is not a Chicago based company (I have no issue with Chicago, these guys just are not based there). Very credible with an extensive work record in Illinois.
- Onlooker - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:39 pm:
I agree because as soon as they pulled the anit-union stuff out of the property tax bill he said it didn’t do enough.
- Frenchie Mendoza - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:43 pm:
What’d be more interesting — and might even gain more support across the state — is if Rauner simply issued a blanket condemnation on unions — all unions.
He simply doesn’t — and can’t — stand for collective bargaining. It stands in the way of authentic profits.
He wants all collective bargaining in Illinois made illegal.
Just say it. Be honest and forthright about where you stand so that folks who aren’t reading these bills or following the drama can at least hear the soundbite.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:44 pm:
Voted “Mostly Agree” and when - RNUG - commented it, I responded as such then too.
“Why?”
The “yellow” HGOP votes, the way Rauner is requiring his bills be followed as such.
Also, “Example?”
Rep. Franks on his property tax bill;
“Mine starts in 2015, Rauner’s starts in 2016. The governor’s has prevailing wage, mine does not. Mine does not allow for an increase in the debt extension where his does”
https://capitolfax.com/2015/06/08/house-to-take-up-property-tax-freeze-purvis-invited-to-testify/
So, voted “Mostly Agree”
- facts are stubborn things - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:47 pm:
I believe that Rauner’s “turn around agenda”, is code for crush the unions.
- The Equalizer - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:47 pm:
Interesting. Hard to argue against that hypothesis.
- 47th Ward - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:48 pm:
I mostly agree, and it’s a good observation by RNUG.
If only Rauner would be upfront about his real agenda, we could debate it on the merits. But even he knows it’s a bi-partisan political loser, which is why he refused to mention it during the campaign.
The fact that he intentionally misled the voters about his anti-worker agenda ought to make a lot of Illinoisans mad.
- A guy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:48 pm:
Wonder how this one’s gonna come out? lol.
I think we’ll be steadily reviewing what “anti-union” means for a while longer.
Either way, RNUG’s a good egg.
- foster brooks - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:49 pm:
Rauners thinks the middle class should be around $20000 to $50000. Until that happens he and his hedge fund billionaires will never give up
- Rauner Derangement Syndrome - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:49 pm:
How is term limits anti-union again?
- AC - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:50 pm:
Definitely agree. I’ve been searching for a pattern to the inflexibility, and either RNUG is spot on, or it’s a very unlikely coincidence.
- Norseman - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:52 pm:
I can’t disagree with another on point analysis by RNUG.
- phocion - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:53 pm:
It may be true. But how many “unrelated” bills over the years have had pro-union provisions stuck in them: Utilities, IDOT, Tollway, Prevailing Wage Act, Public Private Partnerships, Procurement, Gaming, Municipal Code. Big labor was in the sole drivers’ seat in Springfield for so long that they’ve forgotten the art of compromise. So there’s some pushback now. Big deal.
- Austin Blvd - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:53 pm:
RNUG is right on. Adding…
Each year, local governments must approve a prevailing wage resolution. If they don’t pay prevailing wage on local projects, they risk losing federal funding. Since many capital projects include federal funds, would it not be a little dangerous for Illinois to force the prevailing wage issue?
This dog has been a non-starter from the beginning.
- Juice - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:53 pm:
Term limits themselves are not anti-union. But the only reason why it’s on the “Turnaround Agenda” is so the Governor can claim his agenda wasn’t passed because of self-interested self-dealing politicians when most of the agenda will not be passed because it’s anti-middle class, anti-union nonsense that is simply bad policy in the first place.
- siriusly - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:54 pm:
Mostly agree.
But Rauner and the Tribune will continue to win the message war as long as the message is about “Mike Madigan and the politicians he controls.”
The legislators who want to fight back need to make it about Rauner’s lack of a plan and the fact that he’s done basically nothing:
Said he would veto an unbalanced budget
Proposed a budget that was not balanced
Has not introduced his own bills
Said all the compromise bills don’t do enough
Said he will veto the budget without reforms
Said the reforms don’t do enough
Has not offered any pension reform solutions
What has Rauner actually done in 6 months besides pout, call them names and say “no” ? Leadership?
- Norseman - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:56 pm:
=== How is term limits anti-union again? ===
The purpose is to weaken the Dems hold on the General Assembly. The Dems support unions and the middle class.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:59 pm:
===How is term limits anti-union again? ===
Because what’s the use in killing off the unions if pro-union politicians are still in office?
/snark
- Michelle Flaherty - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:00 pm:
How do you “mostly agree” with something that’s entirely true?
- thunderspirit - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:04 pm:
RNUG has succinctly distilled Governor Rauner’s “turnaround agenda”: collective bargaining is the prime evil.
- White Denim - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:07 pm:
Voted “mostly disagree.” Why? Because it’s simply not true.
Term Limits and Redistricting speak for themselves. If there is an “anti-union poison pill” in there, I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is.
What’s the anti-union poison pill for workers’ compensation reform? Is it anti-union to want to decrease costs to employers by upping causation standards? Does that make all of the Democrats who voted for the 2011 reform anti-union?
Tort reform? What union is that pill going to poison? What are the anti-union parts of that legislation?
Arguably the only piece of the Turnaround that’s still on the table that has any so-called “anti-union” provisions at all is this property tax freeze. And even then, that characterization taxes the credulity of the credulous.
RNUG doesn’t always get it wrong. But this is a swing and a miss.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:09 pm:
- White Denim -,
Explain this in your thoughts;
Rep. Franks on his property tax bill;
“Mine starts in 2015, Rauner’s starts in 2016. The governor’s has prevailing wage, mine does not. Mine does not allow for an increase in the debt extension where his does.”
Hmm.
- Vote Quimby! - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:10 pm:
I voted to agree. This is not legislation, this is a cause.
- Bedbug - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:13 pm:
RNUG points out a terrific example of phony reform.
- Precinct Captain - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:13 pm:
==- Juice - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 12:53 pm:==
Term limits are certainly anti-democratic.
- Bedbug - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:14 pm:
===How is term limits anti-union again? ===
Because what’s the use in killing off the unions if pro-union politicians are still in office?
There’s no doubt that term limits favor the uber-rich in the US.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:14 pm:
This plays well with the public and upcoming contact reductions that will balance the budget.
- Rod - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:14 pm:
Of course RNUG is correct and its completely rational from the Governor’s perspective. Collective bargaining rights in the public sector are a cost driver, eliminate that driver then all you are faced with is the market for employment or what is called in economics the marginal utility of labor. Governor Rauner totally understands this and used it in relation to his corporate acquisitions. There are limits on far down wages and benefits can be driven, but Illinois wages for public sector workers is well above that level currently.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:18 pm:
Mostly disagree. In regards to property tax freeze, the additional items address the fact that such a freeze will have an impact locally, and those provisions would allow local units to effectively address funding as they see fit. It gives more local control over how money is spent, and absolutely relates to the overall purpose of the legislation.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:24 pm:
==In regards to property tax freeze, the additional items address the fact that such a freeze will have an impact locally, and those provisions would allow local units to effectively address funding as they see fit.==
There’s a lot of other ways to do that, and if the consequences of your idea are so catastrophic that you have to abridge workers’ rights, you probably need to completely rethink your idea.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:25 pm:
==This plays well with the public and upcoming contact reductions that will balance the budget.==
I don’t think you can get $3 billion out of the AFSCME contract…
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:26 pm:
==Does that make all of the Democrats who voted for the 2011 reform anti-union?==
Pro-reform Dems certainly took grief from the unions for that vote.
- Mortimer Duke - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:28 pm:
I’m on Team Rauner. We are not against the middle class. Well, let me be more specific. We’re not against the true middle class. You see, the corrupt Democrats have artificially elevated many people into the middle class that do not belong there. They should be in a lower class. Who pays for that? Me, Rauner, and other “superstars.” We’re tired of seeing our peers across Lake Michigan in Indiana with larger yachts. Rauner’s turn-back-the-clock agenda is pure genius.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:28 pm:
Term limits and redistricting would both hurt the party that Rauner believes is bought-and-paid for by the unions. Notice that his term limit plan didn’t touch executive offices.
- VanillaMan - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:28 pm:
Agreed.
Rauner is rabidly anti-union and will rather flush everything he has and we have, in order to see them killed off.
He wasn’t elected to do that. He knows it and had hidden it. No one could have been prepared for how insanely obsessed Rauner is over this.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:31 pm:
== you probably need to completely rethink your idea.==
The problem with your line of thinking is you believe the baseline for current standards isn’t controversial simply because those terms were agreed to by previous administrations. If you think the business community, local governments, and and Governor is going tag renewing that and cave to using that baseline assumption moving forward, and simply impose more taxes and mandates without reform of existing mandates and regulation, you probably need to completely rethink yours.
- Hawkeye in Illinois - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:31 pm:
BINGO —the only sincere Rauner aspiration is to eliminate labor unions in Illinois within four years and increase (lower-paying) jobs with little or no benefits in companies that can be snapped up by “superstar” venture capitalists, gutted and resold at a premium.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:33 pm:
- Anonymous -,
So Union workers make too much money?
- pundent - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:33 pm:
Voted mostly agree. Rauner wants to be Scott Walker but he doesn’t have the same GA. Therein lies the problem. What’s unfolding now is plan “B” since plan “A” (have a groundswell of support with local turnaround resolutions) failed.
- Skeptic - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:37 pm:
“There are limits on far down wages and benefits can be driven” Exactly right. And if the business owners can’t drive the wages down to what they want, they close the plant and move to Mexico/China/India. And somehow that’s good for Illinois?
Then try doing that with State government.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:38 pm:
==
- Anonymous -,
So Union workers make too much money?==
That depends on the union worker, hoe much available to pay them, and the burden/causal effect imposed on the entity paying them to get more money to pay them.
- thunderspirit - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:39 pm:
=== Exactly right. And if the business owners can’t drive the wages down to what they want, they close the plant and move to Mexico/China/India. And somehow that’s good for Illinois?
Then try doing that with State government. ===
Illinois: Outsourcing Your Agencies Since 2015!
- Wensicia - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:40 pm:
Agree, but Rauner’s relentless obsession with the unions will hurt him in the long run. In the meantime, a lot of grief will be felt by all.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:40 pm:
So the negotiated prevailing wage is hurting?
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:41 pm:
==Then try doing that with State government.==
Keep raising taxes and mandates without reform, and you’ll see it happen more
- Chicago Guy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:43 pm:
I voted mostly disagree because I read the poll too fast and voted incorrectly. I actually mostly agree.
I think there are some industries and locations where the unions are too strong. But Illinois government isn’t one of them.
- White Denim - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:46 pm:
Willy, I’m not sure what you think you’ve proven. That addresses about one-fifth of what I said. No less, it points out the only place (and I admitted as much) where perceived* “anti-union poison pills,” still exist in the Turnaround Agenda.
So that leaves the other four. In order to substantiate the claim that “everything that’s been introduced” includes these provisions, you’re going to have to do better than one out of five.
- Simon B. Sinister - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:47 pm:
Is anyone really suprised. It’s obvious to me that BVR sent away for and received his Koch brothers activity kit with motivational VHS tape and decoder ring. Since then he’s been following the easy step by step (repeat ad nausea if message not accepted by mass of humanity) instructions toward the goal of making Illinois and the world a far better place for BVR and his circle jerk of cronies and swells.
- Rich Miller - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:49 pm:
===So that leaves the other four===
Only if you believe that he’s going to shut down government perpetually until he gets redistricting reform and term limits.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:51 pm:
===… “everything that’s been introduced” includes these provisions,…===
Read the answers; “Mostly”
===Term Limits and Redistricting speak for themselves. If there is an “anti-union poison pill” in there, I can’t for the life of me figure out what it is.===
How about term limiting Union supporting legislators, and the maps that “seem” to favor Pro-Union legislators be limited when possible.
3 of 5 I think, lol.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:53 pm:
==So the negotiated prevailing wage is hurting?==
That depends on who’s doing the negotiating and whether such “negotiations” are voluntary, or mandated.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:55 pm:
===That depends on who’s doing the negotiating and whether such “negotiations” are voluntary, or mandated.===
Nope. I’m asking. “So the negotiated prevailing wage is hurting?”
Yes. Or no.
- The Muse - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:55 pm:
Voted mostly agree.
I’m convinced Rauner is not at all concerned about getting re-elected. It’s a VP nod/White House push or bust for him, and he has to make it look like he’s busting heads along the way. Otherwise, he’ll be just an(other) ineffective governor.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:56 pm:
==3 of 5 I think, lol.==
It’s at least 4/5, unions hate the idea of worker’s comp reform unless it’s provider/insurer side. And I don’t think unions love tort reform, either. But I’ll concede that that one’s more about soaking the trial lawyers.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:58 pm:
==Yes. Or no.==
It absolutely does for a local looking for the best bang for taxpayer bucks
- Anon - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:59 pm:
Mostly Agree, but is anyone surprised? He truly views unions as an improper influence in government and wants to eliminate or severely limit that. Nothing wrong with it.
- Rauner Derangement Syndrome - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:00 pm:
Unions hate the idea of causation as a condition of workers compensation? Is fraud an essential element necessary to provide a middle class life? Because most of the people I know didn’t need to defraud someone to get here.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:01 pm:
- Anonymous -,
Whatever the percentage difference you think the prevailing wage is too high, send me your extra of the same percentage. So if it’s 10% too high, send me 10% of your earnings…lol.
To get better, we need to lower wages. Wow.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:01 pm:
==It’s at least 4/5, unions hate the idea of worker’s comp reform unless it’s provider/insurer side==
So if you have a position that unions disagree with, even if the basis for your position has little to nothing to do with unions, then it’s simply because you’re out to get unions? LOL
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:03 pm:
===So if you have a position that unions disagree with, even if the basis for your position has little to nothing to do with unions, then it’s simply because you’re out to get unions? LOL===
You asked, which of the 5 you listed is anti-Union. So there’s that…
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:05 pm:
== Is fraud an essential element necessary to provide a middle class life?==
“Fraud” is not the exact and exclusive argument of a causation standard in a workers’ compensation system. The idea behind a “No Fault” Workers Compensation system is that it doesn’t really matter what caused the employee’s injury (provided it was actually in the course of work), he still can’t work, he still has medical bills, and we still don’t want him to suffer. You may disagree with that (I think it sounds nice, but am willing to compromise on it, or trade it away for something else), but it has nothing to do with fraud.
- Juice - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:07 pm:
PC- agree with term limits being anti-democratic, which is funny coming from the guy who loves just yapping it up about “empowering voters.” Which he apparently wants to empower them by placing constitutional restrictions on who they can vote for.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:08 pm:
==So if you have a position that unions disagree with, even if the basis for your position has little to nothing to do with unions, then it’s simply because you’re out to get unions?==
I’m not sure what “the basis” for that position is; Rauner has said very little about workers comp, besides the fact that he wants it, but no, not that version of it.
But the fact that his idea of reform seems centered around Causation without considering insurer-side reform (which would ideally make sure the savings are actually passed along to businesses) is telling.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:11 pm:
At any rate, when every other element of your agenda is about pushing *someone* around, you tend to lose the benefit of the doubt.
- JS Mill - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:13 pm:
Mostly agree- Why? RNUG kills it, spot on. Also, Rauner’s actions are the evidence.
- Cheryl44 - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:14 pm:
I could not agree more and can’t understand why anyone paying any attention didn’t see this coming.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:15 pm:
==
At any rate, when every other element of your agenda is about pushing *someone* around, you tend to lose the benefit of the doubt.==
Hence the distrust of Mike Madigan given his actions over the years
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:16 pm:
It’s RNUG, of course I agree. There are very few people that I agree with on most issues and RNUG is one of those few.
I thank God for RNUG
- Re: Work Comp - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:16 pm:
Over 100 years ago labor agreed with business to enter into a no fault insurance system where pretty much every employer bought we insurance. In exchange for no causation being required employers got rid of the risk of being sued for millions and losing everything. If business wants to get rid of workers comp. and go back to the tort system, I am sure labor would be glad to accept a causation standard. As it is now, there is no causation standard but the compensation is limited. The real problem is the insurance companies charging too much for insurance and the doctors charging double or triple what they get from health insurance.
- White Denim - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:17 pm:
Hey Willy, I’m over here. That wasn’t me Anonymous at 2:01. But that Anonymous does make an excellent point. You have to cut the bologna awfully thin to turn Term Limits and redistricting and worker’s comp reform into “anti-union” ideas. As long as your standard for what constitutes anti-union remains so absurdly low, it should be easy to find anti-union poison pills in EVERY piece of legislation. Ironic coming from a forum where people are constantly harping about “playing the victim,” no?
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:17 pm:
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 1:55 pm:
===That depends on who’s doing the negotiating and whether such “negotiations” are voluntary, or mandated.===
Nope. I’m asking. “So the negotiated prevailing wage is hurting?”
Yes. Or no.===
Yes it is hurting. The municipality or governmental entity does not get to negotiate the wage rate. This hurts because prevailing rate is not just the wage “on the check, it is also the fringe benefits which includes pension, health and welfare, apprenticeship schools, CISCO etc… While $40 dollars an hour doesn’t sound like much, but when you add the fringes, the numbers gets at or above $70 an hour real quick. That is why it hurts.
Also, there is no minimum job amount for the rate to kick in. So if a county board member needs to have their office painted, it is going to going to cost $70 an hour plus materials.
- Arsenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:18 pm:
==Hence the distrust of Mike Madigan given his actions over the years==
Yes, exactly. The Governor ought to stop trying to emulate Mike Madigan. He said he wanted to shake up Springfield, after all.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:19 pm:
==Hence the distrust of Mike Madigan given his actions over the years==
“Hence the distrust of Governor Rauner, given his actions over the past 5 1/2 months.”
Better
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:26 pm:
===pension, health and welfare, apprenticeship schools, CISCO etc…===
Fringe benefits?
Didn’t Governor Rauner, himself say he wants more trade schools? Now “who” will pay for those?
===While $40 dollars an hour doesn’t sound like much, but when you add the fringes, the numbers gets at or above $70 an hour real quick.===
So, the negotiated prevailing wage, factoring in what Rauner wants in trade schools, and also paying the negotiated “Fringe Benefits” that include training, and education that is just too high? It’s negotiated.
===Also, there is no minimum job amount for the rate to kick in. ===
Let’s do “task earnings”! You list your duties, we’ll decide what is worthy of your pay at a certain level.
It’s an hourly rate. Negotiated.
You send me that 20+% you want to cut of your income to me, then I’ll be swayed.
- A guy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:26 pm:
Not sure if this says more about the issue or more about the readership on the CF blog.
For sure it says something about the folks willing to take the poll. Since it’s secret ballot, I’m not revealing my vote. /s
- RNUG - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:27 pm:
Guess I don’t need to vote on this QOTD …
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:31 pm:
===You have to cut the bologna awfully thin to turn Term Limits and redistricting and worker’s comp reform into “anti-union” ideas===
Bruce Rauner says that Unions and trial lawyers are corrupting the GA, we need term limits to reduce the influence of special interest.
Special interests include unions.
- Huh? - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:41 pm:
The prevailing wage is the wage paid by a governmental agency for work that must be hired from outside the agency.
If a county board member wanted to paint his office using county employees, the prevailing wage would not apply. If the painter is an outside contractor, the prevailing wage applies.
The prevailing wage is built into the unit prices for a construction project. If anyone thinks that reducing the prevailing wage will reduce the cost of construction, please think again. The difference will end up in the contractor’s pocket as a Christmas bonus. The local agency will pay the same prices regardless of the prevailing wage.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:55 pm:
I voted Agree, because the Governor makes so many speeches, and travels with the messages of “local control,” “union bosses”, workers comp or lawsuit limits and makes them mandatory BEFORE he even negotiates on raising revenues somehow. He is the one who ties them together like RNUG commented.
The second element of proof is that he seems to not care that his efforts fail at either the local government levels or in the suits now pending in court.
Conclusion: the point of this is to draw attention to his pro-business agenda and not to actually passing a bill or winning a lawsuit. He is truly fighting for principles (the wrong ones in my opinion) but he would rather lose these battles than give in on his issues.
Compromise does not seem to be one of his options during this first 6 months in office.
- Enviro - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 2:56 pm:
===Everything Rauner has proposed has a anti-union poison pill buried in it somewhere. Once the poison pill is removed, he no longer cares about his proposal… ===
The end game is not only to destroy labor unions, but also to make it possible for billionaires to control legislatures and Congress, pay lower wages and fewer benefits to middle-class workers, and further increase corporate profits and tax breaks for the very wealthy. This is the turnaround agenda.
- Phil King - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:04 pm:
Disagree. It’s not a poison pill, it’s called looking at both sides of the ledger. That’s something IL politicians haven’t done for 30 years now and it’s why we’re broke.
Rauner is a business man. He understands give and take. If you’re going to freeze local government revenue streams, you need to provide them with more flexibility to control expenditures.
This is the same as him saying a minimum wage hike needs to be tied to workers compensation reform. Give and take. Balance.
Increase costs here, decrease them there.
Freezing property taxes without doing something to reduce mandates would be irresponsible.
- Norseman - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:06 pm:
=== Since it’s secret ballot, I’m not revealing my vote. ===
A Guy, I think Rich has NSA advising on who’s voting and how they vote.
- Keyser Soze - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:08 pm:
There seems to be an assumption that the Governor’s animus is directed equally toward all unions, no matter the variety. I don’t quite see it that way. When you peel back the onion, you find that his principal argument seems to fit only the public unions. They are the unions who contribute to politicians, who in turn set salaries and benefits for government workers, who in turn are paid for with public money.
Set aside the broader call for reform of worker’s compensation rules, a staple in the Republican playbook for as long as anyone can remember (yawn), and you are left with the special case of the public unions.
In contrast, the craft unions, i.e.,electrical workers, carpenters, steam-fitters, etc., etc., clearly contribute to the common good with apprenticeship training, retirement programs, and quality work. Given this, the Governor’s position in the ongoing debate might benefit were he to simply acknowledge as much. In fact, it would be helpful if the Governor were to break bread with the craft unions in order to seek mutual accommodations.
- the Other Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:09 pm:
I’m rather amused at the argument that worker’s comp — it even has “worker’s” in its name! — is something that labor unions (you know, the guys who represent workers) don’t care about.
But to the question: absolutely agree. Why? because I read this blog and see the proposals — it’s factually true.
- walker - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:12 pm:
“Poison pill” works because these added or combo-items virtually guarantee that there will be no legislative agreements. The term really doesn’t apply to the extent that Rauner really wants these, and they are not simply designed to be deal killers.
- Oswego Willy - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:14 pm:
- Keyser Soze -,
I give you Local 150, IUOE, as an example of Rauner’s disconnect.
Collective bargaining is huge for all unions, I’d think.
Right now, if I’m choosing the Governor or Local 150, it’s not even close; Local 150, and their history of supporting Republicans, and Republicans understanding why they support them.
- Enviro - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:15 pm:
The establishment of Right to Work laws or Right to Work zones would apply to public and private unions.
- x ace - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:15 pm:
RNUG right on target
- Anon3 - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:16 pm:
K. Soze, good point … Now if the Gov could just get this pesky little law changed, wouldn’t that be grand - - - for him?
(5 ILCS 315/2) (from Ch. 48, par. 1602)
Sec. 2. Policy. It is the public policy of the State of Illinois to grant public employees full freedom of association, self-organization, and designation of representatives of their own choosing for the purpose of negotiating wages, hours and other conditions of employment or other mutual aid or protection..
- Juice - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:17 pm:
Keyser Soze, the Governor’s promotion of local right to work zones, elimination of prevailing wage and elimination of PLAs in addition to workers comp are all aimed directly at the trade and other private sector unions.
- BW - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:18 pm:
I have worked with several communities downstate and my experience with prevailing wage is it can be a real burden when they try to stretch the taxpayers dollar. Typically, there is a 40-45% premium on prevailing wage on sidewalk projects for example. In small towns, you only have a handful of contractors that do this kind of work, so the taxpayers $10,000 really only buys $6,000 worth of market rate product. Small towns are only going to spend so much each year for sidewalks, so every year they in effect get 40% less.
You can talk about depressed wages, but on the street in downstate rural communities, 1/2 to 2/3 of our tax bills are going to support the schools. Small municipalities are typically in the 10% range of a tax bill and face statutory limits on levies. A real problem in downstate is that the EAV’s are also typically flat as well. So there is only so much you can do to go to that property tax well from those very same middle class people that will suddenly be driven into poverty if prevailing wage is not there.
There are a lot of pressures on small towns throughout the state. I don’t want to criticize labor, but at the end of the day there is a real struggle for some communities to find a balance. All citizens expect high levels of local services when they pay their property taxes (and they will call and let you know) that they expect quality streets, beautiful parks, perfect sidewalks, around the clock police and immediate fire response.
- Former Merit Comp Slave - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:25 pm:
Totally agree. Remember at the beginning of the campaigning when Rauner started the union bashing? Then he laid off long enough to BS state employees and the public in general and to ensnare those employees who were very upset with Quinn. That, to me, said it all. I tried to point this out to fellow employees as well as other drastic changes in his stances. Sometimes you have to stop your complaining long enough to hear what is being said (then not said, then backtracked etc).
- James - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:29 pm:
Agree. In Rauner’s own words, repealing prevailing wage is “the single most important thing”.
If Rauner’s longer term strategy is to play directly to the voters through negative ads, (particularly those voters who just want their taxes cut) he is missing an opportunity. He had/has a chance to say he froze real estate taxes. That initiative used to belong solely to him. But today, the Democrats have taken that initiative away from him, and can respond to his attacks by noting that the governor is the person who wouldn’t agree to the Democratic proposal to freeze your real estate taxes.
- Frenchie Mendoza - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:30 pm:
When things start to go south in a couple weeks, I’m sure Rauner will say how every state employee he meets comes up to him to thank him for shutting down the government.
He’ll tell everyone with a smile that the number one — number one — issue facing Illinois is how happy every one is that he’s finally shaking up Springfield.
He’ll talk about the standing ovations he’s receiving wherever goes.
And then he’ll say the number one — number one! — issue facing Illinois is Madigan and Cullerton.
- Kooky in Kalifornia - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:31 pm:
Agree, this ain’t California
- Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:44 pm:
RNUG, you nailed it here. Easy vote.
- JS Mill - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:48 pm:
@ BW- Very thoughtful post and many good points. Kudos.
I agree with much of what you state, as 60% of the tax bill for several small communities, our district is highly sensitive to these costs and how it impacts local buying power and the ability or willingness (same outcome though) of our local contractors to participate in our projects.
For some of our more common projects, especially asbestos abatement, it is the cost of regulations other than prevailing wage, not required for private sector work that also significantly to the cost of doing business. Asbestos abatement costs us 75% more than the same work in the private sector due to additional testing and abatement procedures. They do not change the outcome, and the same final air quality tests are used. We are also required to have an architect or engineer stamp everything. Schools are quite a cash cow (in my opinion) for the architects and I am told they have a nice little lobby. We conducted a simple window replacement project and the architect fees added more than 10% to the costs based on fees and project costs.
Prevailing wage is one piece of the puzzle that is part of the cost for public sector work, but it isn’t the entire puzzle.
- Juvenal - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 3:55 pm:
Bingo.
- Belle - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 4:00 pm:
Thanks to RNUG for pointing this out, simply and clearly.
- Angry Chicagoan - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 4:33 pm:
He’s waging total war against everything he doesn’t like, especially unions, and hoping that after the next 18 months of chaos, voters reward him with a GOP legislature. If, that is, there’s still a state government. He loaded up his administration with Laffer clones and they’re nothing if not thorough in their scorched earth tactics — we’ve seen that for the past 30 years.
- forwhatitsworth - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 4:43 pm:
Even though union membership has diminished over the years, unions still represent the backbone of the “middle class” that the reactionary forces want to defeat once and for all. Question: Once the upper class wipes out the middle class, how will that benefit the upper class? I still don’t understand this aspect of the class war. There has to be more to it than just ego. Another feudal system?
- Anon2U - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 4:45 pm:
What some call a “poison pill” some call “long overdue medicine.” Just sayin’.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 5:33 pm:
=What some call a “poison pill” some call “long overdue medicine.” Just sayin’.=
Lack of conviction is your statement? Just sayin’.
- Macbeth - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 5:50 pm:
Are public unions really that big of an issue? Apart from the threat that the collective provides — do they actually cost rich folks money?
Or is it a core belief from said folk that unions cramp their style?
Anyway, who told Rauner that Illinois would go for this? He expected to do this in 6 months? Just dismantle collective bargaining?
I don’t get it. Either Rauner is far less savvy than he claims — or he’s delusional.
- Arizona Bob - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 5:53 pm:
JS, for once we agree on something. I used to work in the school Architect/Engineering industry, but it became more about dirty politics than about doing good for the kids.
When a Project approach or scope couldn’t be justified, I wasn’t willing to stand up there in front of the board and tell them to spend a million dollars to solve a $10,000 problem.
Once I was asked to evaluate a school’s HVAC system, and I found the indoor air handling units just needed some cleaning, a new cooling coil and new fan motor to work well. This would only cost about $10K to fix. The maintenance manager told me they already allocated funds for complete replacement, including ripping down and reconstructing the new walls in the mechanical room, for about a million dollars, so that’s what he wanted me to recommend. I found out he had a “relationship” with the contractor who was almost certain to get the work, and he was paid overtime whenever the contractor was working. With my fix, there was no need for OT.
I suggested the architect get someone else to do that project.
What REALLY frosted me was that architects were providing T&M services to schools to teach them how to deceive the public into approving a referendum for capital work of questionable need.
I certainly wanted no part of that.
I once was able to get onto my school’s building and finance committee. Another board member, who now is a state Senator, was keeping track of how much my input was saving the district. In the first two months, he estimated I’d saved the district over $70K while meeting the project’s goals.
The superintendent and committee chair told me not to come for the third month. I was not “invited”.
I sometimes wonder how much less expensive and effective our schools would be if the administrations and boards actually cared about efficient and effective use of taxpayer dollars. What I do know is that spending is power in politics, and anyone diminishing that spending in something as political as public education quickly makes an “enemies list” in most suburbs and Chicago.
I can assure you this is not an isolated case, JS. I hope your district is run differently.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 6:12 pm:
Agree, for reasons above.
I’d add the push for muni bankruptcy is anti-union as well, but I think proponents would be wise to study how those settlement are turning out.
– I think we’ll be steadily reviewing what “anti-union” means for a while longer.–
Yet it only takes a second of review to determine that statement means absolutely nothing.
- Courser - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 6:27 pm:
The governor seems singularly focused on breaking the unions and sticking with his far right wing agenda…much to his own detriment and to the detriment of the rest of the state. I had initially given him points for being more astute than he appears to be, but he seems to be quite content to fiddle as Rome burns.
- Anon - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 6:59 pm:
I do not understand why the property tax freeze would need to be pegged to legislation to allow local governments to pay wages below the market rate for skilled workers.
Never mind that it ignores both the labor market, and the requirements that are tied to most federal monies of federal grants.
You pay for what you get.
- DuPage Dave - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 7:23 pm:
You have to hand it to Rauner for concealing his overwhelming hatred for unions during the campaign. An astonishing (to me) number of unionized state employees admit to having voted for him. One told me last week “I didn’t know he felt like this.”
I read Rauner as hating all unions. The prevailing wage is aimed a non-state employee unions- plumbers, electricians, carpenters, roadbuilders. Those guys are his target now.
I admit that Rauner, like Scott Walker, gives the police and firefighter unions a pass. (Unfortunately those unions don’t seem to know much about solidarity, but I digress.
)
But otherwise Rauner hates ‘em all. Public or private.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 8:01 pm:
Worker’s comp and tort reform are certainly Labor issues. Those injured on the job tend to be rank and file guys on the streets, not the ceo’s at their desks.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 8:32 pm:
AB, your example has nothing to do with prevailing wage.
As an engineer, last I checked we don’t have prevailing wages.
However, as a project manager, I’m thrilled to work for a union firm with workers I can trust to do the job right.
You seem to be confused about who’s driving the cost.
- JS Mill - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 8:53 pm:
@AB- We no longer use an architect and are utilizing an alternative process. We have greater cost and quality control, the contractor doers all design and proposal work before we pay a nickel, no contingencies, no overages so they take on substantial financial risk and have to guarantee operational or energy cost savings. They don’t hit their number and they pay us. It is called performance contracting.
The sad thing is that I had to fight with the ISBE bureaucracy for 6 weeks to get the go ahead to use the process. Why? Because architects at the ISBE were the gate keepers.
Many of school fiscal/cost issues are NOT driven by unions but by the business speacial interestes that are constatnly trying to put their hands in our pockets. these are the same people that complain about taxes and want TIF’s and enterprise zones. These forms of business welfare drain our revenue sources and pass costs on to the average homeowner. Most people do not pay close enough attention to the issue and blame it on teachers and administrators.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 8:56 pm:
Thanks JS for recognizing the real problems. It sure isn’t the skilled workers that bust their ass to get jobs done.
- Last Bull Moose - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 8:58 pm:
My experience is that work rules, seniority and bid rights, and difficulty in using rewards and penalties tied to performance have more affect on costs than wages. It is very difficult to manage union workers through union supervisors.
Rauner’s frontal assault on wages is off target. The inability to manage the workforce is crippling the State.
- Anonymous - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 9:02 pm:
LBM - That example is apt for public unions, too many supervisors are unionized. Pat Quinn signed and implemented a bill to address that.
It has absolutely zero relation to trades.
- X-prof - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 9:20 pm:
Mostly agree. But “poison pill” is not a good descriptor for Rauner’s packaging strategy in my opinion. I think he would agree.
A poison pill is added to something desirable to make it undesirable. The classic example is a defensive strategy used to ward off a hostile corporate takeover (Guv knows all about this). A target company, ripe for takeover and dissection, enacts a shareholder rights provision that would strip it of value in the event of a takeover. The target is no longer desirable and the takeover is averted.
Rauner’s proposals follow a Trojan horse strategy. His true purposes, ones that would be unpopular or politically difficult, are hidden within a shell with lots of popular appeal. The purpose is deception and disguise. The handle, Property Tax Freeze Proposal, sounds good to the average over-taxed citizen, but makes no mention of the restrictions on collective bargaining and the prevailing wage exemption within. If the strategy works and the proposal is enacted, the average citizen won’t learn what’s inside until it’s too late.
Do I have that about right, Guv?
Many, but not all, of Rauner’s proposals are anti-union. He certainly has a bee in his bonnet against unions, but the common thread I see involves enriching the wealthy at the expense of the middle class. Term limits and redistricting are simply means to that same end in the context of Illinois.
- Arthur Andersen - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 10:43 pm:
Right on JS Mill! Our skilled trades are not the problem. I worked with all the trades in a prior life and the CDB rigamole ran up the tab, not their work.
- Wordslinger - Wednesday, Jun 10, 15 @ 10:55 pm:
So a political playa makes a great career and life-changing-for- generations money, utilizing very dodgy business practices.
He retires. What’s he going to do with the rest of his life, with the security and independence that comes from all that dough?
The Bill and Melissa worldwide thing? Pillar of the local community? Search for truth?
Or will he dedicate himself, and spend millions of his and his cronies money, dedicating himself to lower millions of other peoples standards of living?
Do you get this guy? He played and milked the system here to make hundreds of millions, yet now that he’s retired, the system sucks, and the regular schmucks who weren’t making the huge insider scores that he did need to be smacked down.
Dr. Freud, a little help? What’s this guys problem?
- former southerner - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 5:19 am:
Word, I can’t help you with Freud because that is the wrong discipline for me.
Some, like the Gates, want to share their good fortune while others turn from small bullies with little wealth to large bullies once great wealth is achieved. Wealth doesn’t turn a good person bad but it can certainly make a bad person worse.
More disturbing are the enablers who identify with and help these bullies to further their power, perhaps one of the motivations for Goya’s etching, “The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters”. I am sure OW appreciates the use of Owls in that piece
- Arizona Bob - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 7:43 am:
JS, just be careful that your contractors have professional licensed engineers and architects doing their designs for them. I’ve made a lot of money over the years fixing “contractor designed” projects that didn’t work and were total abortions. In other industries its called EPC or design-build projects, but in those cases the contractor runs the show and often its based on “guaranteed maximum price”.
Politically connected firms abuse this all the time, especially in Chicago.
A case in point is the latest addition to McCormick Place. I understand that the scope called for over 120 air handling units, but the contractor cut it down to 85 and cut a LOT of corners to do it, and, worst of all, what they proposed wouldn’t meet the design criteria. Eventually they had to change their design and it resulted in delays, but, as always, the taxpayers wound up footing the bill.
A lot of whether it’s prudent to go design-build depends on the skills and experience of your in-house staff. If they understand the codes and what needs to be done and can provide oversight, fine. If not, it can be a disaster. It got so bad in CPS for a while that Hizzoner Daley made all CPS projects get a permit through the city because so many “contractor” designs weren’t meeting safety codes.
For small jobs its not a bad idea, but if you have complex control or large equipment involved, you’re probably better off doing direct hire of architects and engineers.
- Honeybear - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 7:44 am:
“In contrast, the craft unions, i.e.,electrical workers, carpenters, steam-fitters, etc., etc., clearly contribute to the common good”
State workers don’t contribute to the common good? Man, I got no words that I can use on this blog for you. Know that I’m saying them to you right now. Screaming them! I hope the coming shutdown effects you or your family in the worst way.
- Arizona Bob - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 7:49 am:
@ anonymous
If your really and engineer, you’d know that very often it’s not union labor that gets the public jobs. It’s non-union labor that just gets a big raise for the same quality of work they do commercially for the same work.
I guess I’ve had different experience than you. I’ve had bigger problems with quality of work and schedule with the union outfits in the Chicago area, as well as “featherbedding” to get extras and change orders for OT.
Just one project manager’s experience….
- Oswego Willy - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 8:12 am:
- former southerner -,
Owls, eh? I should take a look at that.
- former southerner - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 8:25 am:
OW,
a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sleep_of_Reason_Produces_Monsters
Sadly about the only thing I remember from a required art course in middle school, it must have made quite an impression. Heading for a career in marketing and consulting in risk management art hasn’t played much of a role in my life and I certainly have no talent in that domain.
- Oswego Willy - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 8:30 am:
Wow, thanks for the link - former southerner -.
Looks like a Mushroom at the desk on the Floor, and the Owls ravaging the hibernating Mushroom.
“And the cat is saying ‘Whadda want from me?’…”
Thanks. Pretty cool.
- JS Mill - Thursday, Jun 11, 15 @ 9:30 am:
AZ- The one component of the work they actually do is the design. They have a large team of certified engineers and architects. All regulated by the capital development board (if that means anything). This is not a Chicago based company (I have no issue with Chicago, these guys just are not based there). Very credible with an extensive work record in Illinois.