Question of the day
Monday, Jun 7, 2010 - Posted by Rich Miller
* The setup…
Nielsen and Hankes [both men] said they visited LaFiesta Azteca on May 7 to have dinner. But after the couple kissed on the lips, they were approached by the owner and told to stop.
The couple said their rights were violated because they were not treated as a heterosexual couple would have been treated under the same circumstances.
“We sat on the same side of the booth. We kissed a few times on the lips, but it was not vulgar,” said Hankes, who lives in Lemont.
The couple claim they were reprimanded, and they decided to leave, Hankes said. They say the owner blocked their path until they paid for the appetizers and drinks they ordered.
“The manager puffed out his chest and said, ‘You’re going to pay,’” Hankes said. “Frankie threw a $20 bill on the table, and we stormed out.”
But Jaime Esparza, the owner of LaFiesta Azteca, said he was never hostile with the couple and he didn’t refuse to serve them. He said he would ask any couple to respect his restaurant and leave the kissing outside.
The state law…
Sec. 5‑102. Civil Rights Violations: Public Accommodations. It is a civil rights violation for any person on the basis of unlawful discrimination to:
(A) Enjoyment of Facilities, Goods, and Services. Deny or refuse to another the full and equal enjoyment of the facilities, goods, and services of any public place of accommodation;
* The Question: While avoiding disgusting, over-the top responses like those at Illinois Review, tell us if you side with the two men or the restaurant owner. And don’t forget to explain your answer. Thanks.
- 47th Ward - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:27 pm:
I’m going to take the side of the owner here and simply explain that boorish behavior is not relegated to heterosexuals. These two guys were out of line and their protest stinks.
I’ve never been a fan of any kind of public displays of affection (ask my wife!), and the story mentions “kissing on the neck,” which is kind of gross behavior in public regardless of whether it is two men, two women or a woman and a man.
- Northsider - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:28 pm:
The men.
To me, the money quote is this, from the owner: “I asked them, really polite, I said, ‘I know you guys are in love, and you’re young. It’s OK. But don’t do it here.’”
Has the owner ever told a heterosexual couple of any age to stop kissing inside his restaurant? (And did the reporter think to ask that?) Can he prove that? Is there a “No Kissing” or “No PDAs” sign posted anywhere?
I’m also thinking that as the guys’ lawyer read that quote, a nice, feral grin spreads across his or her face.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:28 pm:
These two are ridiculous.
This isn’t about kissing or gender. It is about what is appropriate behavior in public. They crossed the line. As a man madly in love with his wife, I struggle to maintain my passions in public, and I expect others to do the same.
When couples start engaging in public intimacies such as kissing, fighting, arguing, tongue wrestling, or a quick game of Pit, their conduct is lacking in consideration of those around them.
Any family with a child melting down in public understands that emotional responses made in restaurants are out of bounds.
The restaurant, naturally.
- Objective Dem - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:37 pm:
This is one of those cases where you had to be there to see it. If they were only giving quick simple kisses, the men were right. If they were mashing excessively, the restaurant owner was right.
I don’t particularly like to see excessive pda but I never mind seeing people treating one another in a naturally affectionate manner (including kissing). I would much rather see a couple showing affection, then a couple sitting in icy silence.
- Montrose - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:38 pm:
If there is strong, consistent evidence that the restaurant has applied this policy to straight couples over the years, then it is fine.
If the owner suddenly discovered discomfort with PDA when a gay couple engages in it, then it is a clear violation of the law.
I am no fan of PDA, regardless of who it is. If it was my restaurant, I would have signs up saying “no makin’ out here”. That being said, I have seen nothing in this case that demonstrates equal application of the law.
Think of it in terms of selling a house and our well understood fair housing laws. Take the facts of this case and translate them to housing. If there is a policy for the gay couple that does not exist for the straight couple, well then we have a problem.
- Fan of the Game - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:40 pm:
The restaurant.
The owner has a right to restrict activity in his place of business as long as those restrictions are equally enforced.
- UISer - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:43 pm:
The issue is about the owner asking the two to stop. This is only because if it were a straight couple, they more than likely would not be asked to stop. If the owner said the same thing to a straight couple than there wouldn’t be an issue. However, it is hard to test this.
Rich, check out the ABC show “What Would you Do”. They just had a situation similar to this, and to see real life reactions to a gay couple in a restaurant is very disturbing.
- Greg B. - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:48 pm:
It all depends on context.
- wordslinger - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:50 pm:
Ugh, another victim heard from.
The level of civic rudeness is off the charts. What’s so hard about keeping it to yourself in public? I blame the tea-partiers (lol). Here are some rules for behavior in public:
–Don’t yap loudly on your phone. You’re not that interesting. Better yet, text.
–Wait til people get off the train before trying to board the train. It’s so simple and obvious.
–Don’t stand up or ask anyone to move at ballgames unless it’s between innings (or at least between batters). If you’re a male over 40, don’t do it or I’ll give you a crack.
–Keep your mouth shut at movies. I mean it. I won’t say it again.
–Don’t curse in front of children or old ladies. Unless they have it coming.
– Don’t make fun of other people’s children. In public.
–Don’t bring firearms to presidential appearances (your freedom will be safe — really).
–Don’t make out in indoor or enclosed public places, especially if you’re unattractive. Being really drunk is not an excuse.
–Get off my lawn.
–Shut up back there.
There are many more. Were you all raised by wolves?
- grand old partisan - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:57 pm:
It’s impossible to make a definitive ruling based on subjective descriptions of the event (the couple claims that their kissing was “not vulgar”) and comparisons to hypothetical alternate scenarios (would the owner really have reacted similarly to a hetero couple engaging in the same behavior, as he claims?).
I find it curious that so many commenters have suggested it is up to the owner to prove that he has applied a consistent policy towards hetero couples. Why isn’t it up to the men to prove otherwise? What if the alternate situation has honestly never come up before?
- really?? - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 1:57 pm:
The restaurant. This type of behavior by anyone should not be allowed and one would think most people would be more courteous to others in the restaurant. I put this in the same category as loud laughing, belching and blowing noses at the table in a public place.
- Ahoy - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:01 pm:
I don’t have enough information either way, but if they were served drinks and appetizers, they obviously weren’t refused service. The couple doesn’t really have a legitimate complaint unless the owner allows heterosexual couples to make-out in his restaurant, thus I don’t have enough information.
- Montrose - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:01 pm:
*What if the alternate situation has honestly never come up before?*
Then you show you have policies in place that treat everyone equally. What are his staff trained to do with customers that are engaging in inappropriate behavior? Is there any policy written down? Is there a history of addressing inappropriate behavior - whether or not it is kissing - directly and in the manner the owner did this time?
There are many ways he could show this was not an outlier.
- curiouser - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:03 pm:
I guess I better not kiss my husband at dinner on our anniversary! Yikes!
- Rudy - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:04 pm:
Interesting, columnist Walter Williams just put a peice out this past week sorta touching on this…
http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/articles/10/TheRightToDiscriminate.htm
- Rich Miller - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:08 pm:
===This type of behavior by anyone should not be allowed ===
OK, there have been way too many comments like that here. They ban PDAs in Dubai and actually throw people in jail for it. Is that the sort of society you really want?
Please.
- soccermom - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:09 pm:
My husband and I have solved this problem. We sit across from each other at restaurants, so if we are suddenly overcome by passion, the table serves as a constraint.
- Lefty Lefty - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:12 pm:
Sounds like a Vikings-Packers game to me. I want them both to lose.
Watching people make out is an uncomfortable place to be for the vast majority of people. OTOH, the restaurant owner could have just asked them politely to stop, but he kicked them out and made them pay. I cannot see any commendable actions by anyone involved.
Of course, they all could be lying, too. All this is is the People’s Court for the local “media.”
- UISer - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:13 pm:
lol soccermom
- Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:14 pm:
You people are stiff, no PDA at all? I’m with the couple on this one, I highly doubt they were doing anything a lot of young heterosexual couples do all the time. I frequently kiss my girlfriend in public, and if someone doesn’t like it there’s something I have for them to kiss too.
- 47th Ward - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:14 pm:
===but he kicked them out and made them pay===
That’s not what the article said Lefty. They decided to leave, and the owner asked them to pay for the food/drinks they ordered.
- grand old partisan - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:16 pm:
Montrose - why is it up to the owner to prove that this was not an outlier? I thought that accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
- Responsa - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:24 pm:
Many restaurants and stores have a policy of “no shoes, no shirt, no service.” Some don’t like it if you bring a flask to serve yourself. Others disallow ringing cell phones while at the table. Not always are these rules posted, but when they are explained nicely by the owner most normal people graciously comply. The two kissing guys here were not asked to leave, they were merely asked to change the behavior for a few minutes. Then they tried to leave without paying for the food they had consumed. People can choose to be umbrage-taking victims or they can choose to be gracious members of society. As someone who vividly remembers the civil rights movement of the 1960’s–a time when there was real and unequivocal discrimination– I find the casual application of the word “discrimination” to this type of restaurant altercation to be highly offensive.
- Montrose - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:25 pm:
*why is it up to the owner to prove that this was not an outlier? I thought that accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.*
It is called mounting a defense. The owner will be proven guilty if he can’t do it.
- grand old partisan - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:30 pm:
Montrose - you don’t have to mount a defense if those accusing you haven’t made a case against you. An accusation based on speculation is not enough. The men have to provide some evidence that they were treated differently than other customers who have engaged in similar behavior at that establishment. I see no such evidence being presented here, so what is there to defend against?
- Six Degrees of Separation - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:31 pm:
I guess the important thing here is that nobody died or was beat up.
The laws and customs of the US on this issue are in flux, and if I was on a jury, I might give the the restaurant owner a pass if he wasn’t up to date or misinterpreted the letter or intent of the numerous applicable state and federal civil rights laws, without explicit malice toward the couple that he demonstrably wouldn’t have applied in the same manner to others. And most of the commenters here have identified that there is a behavior threshhold that is inappropriate to cross; there is disagreement on where the line is.
I am of mixed emotions on this one. On the one hand, if I were gay, I would want to be treated like everyone else. On the other hand, things were much simpler in earlier times when laws and customs were less numerous and better defined.
- Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:40 pm:
- they were merely asked to change the behavior for a few minutes. -
The issue is if they were asked to change behavior because they were gay. If the restaurant has a big sign that says “No PDA”, and its enforced for everyone, thats a different story. If I was gay, and a restaurant owner asked me to stop kissing my boyfriend specifically because it was a he and not a she, they could throw me in jail before I gave that restaurant a dime for anything I’d consumed.
- Montrose - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:40 pm:
GOP - This will be my last comment for fear of a crack-down from Rich, but you have a point. If the couple can not show their case has merit, then it will be dismissed (assuming they ever file anything).
That being said, being proactive and having documentation of equal treatment is a pretty good idea.
- jake - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:45 pm:
Absolutely the men. Even if their behavior was visually offensive to some, all others had to do was not to look. As a general proposition, there is so much hostility in the world, that I am happy whenever I see people interacting in a way that suggests they like each other.
In response to “six degrees of separation”, I am not sure that things ever were much simpler. They only seemed simpler if you stayed with “your own kind”, but this whole issue is emerging from the complexity of human nature. In a society where one values freedom, tolerance for diversity is very important.
- lincolnlover - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:47 pm:
So, what if it wasn’t a restaurant? What if it was the local mall food court? Everyone still ok with them (or any other gender combination of couple) making out there? My husband and I sometimes share a quick smooch in public and if that’s what happened, the restaurant owner should have looked the other way. Any more than that and it becomes his business to address the behavior. Now what we really need is a law against screamin’ kids in public places!
- Bluefish - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:47 pm:
The guys. Having previously worked many years as a food server, the rule of thumb is not to interfere with the guest who are dining. I’ve seen all kinds of PDAs at tables and only once have I ever been offended (by a couple of regulars consisting of a “boy” who looked no more than 15 and his “cougar” girlfriend who was old enough to be his mother playing “footies” and much more under the table). No matter how disgusting they were, we were not allowed to do anything unless other guests complained (which despite dirty looks no one ever did).
BTW - I always liked waiting on gay couples. Great tippers if you treated them well.
- Cheryl44 - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:47 pm:
I’ll need to see the video before I can form an opinion. I also need have it proved to me the owner has made the same request of heterosexual couples in the past.
- Responsa - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 2:57 pm:
–they could throw me in jail before I gave that restaurant a dime for anything I’d consumed.–
Wow, am I reading this correctly? Your view is that if one’s feelings get hurt and if one decides to engage in a self-imposed snit, one is then automatically free to leave without paying–in effect stealing the food?
- grand old partisan - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:01 pm:
*Even if their behavior was visually offensive to some, all others had to do was not to look.*
And just where, exactly, do you draw the line with that?
- wordslinger - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:05 pm:
STL. in my life, I’ve been kicked out of a number of places, for good reason, for the most part. Misunderstandings, we all laughed the next day (or at least I did).
We’re not talking the Walgreen’s luncheonette in 1962 Birmingham here. Bull Connor’s not waiting outside with dogs and firehoses.
You can’t kick people out because of religion, race, shade of skin tone, language, sexuality, etc., but, in your own place, you can ask them to take it easy or take it somewhere else.
There are bars where it’s acceptable or even encouraged to make out. You can’t make out at the CSO…. or church…. or school functions. This ain’t a civil rights issue. It’s good manners.
Now, if it’s Sandra Bullock kissing Scarlett Johnannsen, like the other night, I want to see it — over and over again — just to make sure it’s cool.
- Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:06 pm:
- Wow, am I reading this correctly? -
First of all, if I’m willing to go to jail that doesn’t exactly mean I’m free to steal now, does it? And its not about getting feelings hurt, its about being discriminated against. So no, I would say you’re not reading correctly, might want to work on that.
- Cosmic Charlie - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:09 pm:
Who would want to go to a restaurant that wouldn’t allow you to kiss, even passionately kiss, your partner? Gay or straight?
Young couples often approach the line of what is appropriate in public but I have never heard of a situation where they were told to stop. I’m sure the looks of discomfort from the other customers were because it was a gay couple. And to that I say good. Let them be uncomfortable. Force them to overcome their parochial ignorances and enter the 21st century.
I mean, this is straight out of the movie Footloose. Someone needs to send a young Kevin Bacon with a Kenny Loggins Greatest Hits album out to Alsip to loosen these people up.
The owner is wrong.
- Lester Holt's Mustache - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:12 pm:
Oh boy, and article involving homosexuals. These always turn out the reactionary posters. Thanks Rich!
*grabs lawn chair and bag of popcorn*
OK, ready, set, go!
- Small Town Liberal - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:13 pm:
wordslinger - The issue isn’t about manners. As I said before, if a restaurant owner has a no kissing policy enforced for everyone, fine. But at this point its his word against this couple’s, and I am inclined to believe they did nothing that dozens of opposite sex couples have done in that same restaurant without interference. I may be wrong, but the issue is certainly not cut and dried.
- Chathamite - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:35 pm:
I read this story on the HuffPost a few days ago, and as a gay man, I honestly think that if it were a heterosexual couple, this would not have been newsworthy. With regards to the actual PDA, to me kissing is very innocent and it would not have bothered me any more than when a man and woman kiss in public.
Sadly, most of the commenters on this blog probably do not know what it is like to live in a soceity where you cannot openly be the person you are for fear of the hatred and violence that you encouenter.
- Justice - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:38 pm:
Restaurant. As to the couple, get a room for crying out loud. Who wants to see anyone kissing anything in a restaurant unless it’s a baby.
I assure you, there are many shades of ugly and just as I’m ready to devour a fine steak I don’t want someone throwing back the curtain of any one of those shades.
Common sense, common decency, consideration for others. Pretty simple.
- grand old partisan - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:45 pm:
I think it’s important to note that in the un-excerpted portion of the article, the owner claims that the couple was necking. I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that if true, such behavior would probably prompt a similar response despite the orientation of the couple.
- VanillaMan - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 3:53 pm:
I frequently kiss my girlfriend in public, and if someone doesn’t like it there’s something I have for them to kiss too.
So, that’s what you call it? What you are doing, we call it inflating.
- wordslinger - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:03 pm:
STL, I’m old school with manners. My old man wore a suit, tie and jacket to take the bus to O’Hare to fly to the old country.
For the record, I’m libertarian with what goes on behind closed doors. Don’t want to know, really, really, don’t care.
I might not have reacted the same way as the owner did, but I might have as well. It depends on the situation.
I find the Reality Show, Real World, Apprentice, Bachelor, Survivor, world vulgar. I bust my kids on it all of the time.
I’m a great believer in the that anything consenting adults do behind closed doors in none of my business.
I’m also a great believer in that a business owner can ask people to tone it down, too. And you can’t bring a gun into my business, either, no matter what the Illinois Rifle Association says
- Montrose - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:13 pm:
*I’m also a great believer in that a business owner can ask people to tone it down, too.*
Wordslinger - 90% of the time I agree with and appreciate your comments, but you are missing the point on this one. It is not about manners. I am with 100% on how folks should act in public. It is about equally applying the policy. You are going to ell everybody they cannot bring guns into your business, not just the gay couples that come in, right?
- Amalia - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:14 pm:
kissing on the lips a few times is not a vulgar display of affection, gay or straight. the restaurant is out of line.
- A.B. - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:38 pm:
Honestly these articles do not give us enough context. If there were a third party testimonial to what happened, then we could take sides. Otherwise it is two opposing perspectives.
I do support the owner asking them to pay for their food and drink.
However if the PDA wasn’t bothering patrons, then the owner is wrong. If it was intense enough to be offensive, then I do think the owner has the right to protect his business and ask them to leave.
We do need to keep in mind that WE are the ones inferring that the reason was the sexual orientation of the couple. It is possible their actions, not orientation, defined the situation.
And I should add that I was asked to “cool it” from making out with a girlfriend at a pizza parlor during my HS years, so I have been on the hetero end of this one…and in my case, the restaurant was absolutely right.
- Fan of the Game - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:48 pm:
===If the restaurant has a big sign that says “No PDA”, and its enforced for everyone, thats a different story.===
Because all the classy joints have huge signs to warn people not to make out at their tables. I’ll bet Alinea’s got a big ol’ light-up sign in the foyer that reads, “AIN’T NO STRAIGHT OR GAY NECKIN’ IN HERE!”
- wordslinger - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:54 pm:
Montrose, I’m a great romantic — if people find love, I’m happy.
But I think if it’s your restaurant, you can ask folks to tone it down — whatever your sexualityds, who cares?
To each his own. That’s not the most popular position in the county gravel roads and corn and bean fields I grew up in. But I don’t care.
When we all go to church, they tell us we’re all God’s children right?
God bless you all. And I can guarantee I don’t care, and no one should, what you do in bed. Just be cool.
- Louis G. Atsaves - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:58 pm:
I come from an old restaurant family and spent a number of years working there, pre-cellphones.
The restaurant can never win. Ever.
Someone sitting in the place will be offended over the smooching at the next table, whether it be hetero or gay couples, teens or seniors, and will demand that management do something about it. Including crying babies, loud noise, shouting, swearing or conversation. Table manners. The list is endless. I got a demand once to have someone stop smacking their lips while eating.
The news article doesn’t say if other customers were complaining. Maybe the guy was being proactive, trying to shut something down before someone else bellyached about it. The restaurant business management end of things is trying to spend the entire day making sure things don’t go wrong.
Try to make 100% of your customers happy and you end up going crazy.
Tough business. Glad I’m long out of it.
- Third Generation Chicago Native - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 4:59 pm:
If you need to get a room, get a room. Behave no matter what your sexual orientation is.
This morning on the morning drive, there is a group (African Americans) sueing because a graduation card with talking, was talking about the solar system and said black hole.
Now a group of African American revereds are saying they are talking about black women in a derogatory manner.
They played this greeting card in full context and all references were to solar system components.
The point is you can call discrimination no matter what if you want to make something out of nothing.
The restaurant behaviour appears to be over the line no matter what the couples consistancy was.
- Lester Holt's Mustache - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 5:26 pm:
Awww..come on! Not one of those whack-jobs posting at Illinois Review is bringing it here? I was expecting at least one bigot to stop by and start a flame war.
You folks are sorely disappointing me with your maturity and your rational discussion.
- Skeeter - Monday, Jun 7, 10 @ 5:42 pm:
Initially, in most civil cases the defense doesn’t have to prove a thing. The plaintiffs would have to establish that they were treated differently. The law may be different in tnis narrow context, but I doubt it.
Further, saying “don’t make out in my restaurant” is a far cry from Dubai. Hmmn. “Please stop that” as opposed to “You are going to jail for a very long time.” Are those two things different? Let’s contemplate that one. Ok, perhaps the Dubai thing may be a bit more serious but lets not diminish how horrible it must be to receive a polite request to curb your behavior.
With regard to which side — the facts are not complete. Can they establish that they were treated differently? If so, the men are right. If not, the restaurant.
That being said, as much as I try to focus on my dining companions and not on otehrs, I do find that kind of stuff creepy. It is no more or less creepy when it is two men as opposed to a man and a woman. Either way, I don’t paricularly want to see it. On the other hand, that is nothing compared to the table where one person needs to talk very loudly. Hearing a monologue from another table may the worst non-insect related event that can occur at any dining establishment.