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Unclear on the concept

Monday, Jun 19, 2017

* The Illinois Policy Institute on the proposed Republican budget

It’s also a lot of money for a state that already spends far more per student on education than any other state in the Midwest and the 13th-most in the nation. Illinois spends 40 percent more than Kentucky, 37 percent more than Indiana, 32 percent more than Missouri, and 16 percent more than Wisconsin per student.

They say that like it’s a bad thing.

Look, we have serious problems with education bureaucracy here. No doubt. But to use Kentucky as a model for education spending seems a bit, well, unwise.

Then again, considering the quality of their comments maybe they’re just playing to their base.

- Posted by Rich Miller        

23 Comments
  1. - Anonymous - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:13 pm:

    Question for clarification: does this figure include pensions?


  2. - sure - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:14 pm:

    The comparison is informative, and I don’t see where they’re calling for Kentucky-level spending …


  3. - Nobody - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:15 pm:

    The State portion of funding is the lowest in the country. The per pupil spending average is driven up by the wealthy districts with strong tax base. The disparity in per pupil spending is the real story. Poor kids continue to get less.


  4. - Deft Wing - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:16 pm:

    Looks to me as if all IPI is really doing is comparing IL to its surrounding neighbors, one of which is Kentucky. Hardly a crime.


  5. - Just Observing - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:16 pm:

    I mean I guess it depends on the outcomes. Does more spending equate to better educational results? I’m sure at some point it does, but then it probably starts to level off. I have a hard time believing that spending 40 percent more than Kentucky means our outcomes are 40 percent better.


  6. - AnonymousOne - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:20 pm:

    If the real concern for Education is the dollar amount spent, then perhaps we should allow high school grads to become classroom teachers–straight out of high school. No higher ed credentials, no experience and no benefits. That would surely contain those costs and be more than satifactory for your own kids/grandkids education. No?


  7. - Rich Miller - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:24 pm:

    US News ranks Illinois #10 in Pre-K education, Indiana #11, Wisconsin #17, Missouri #21, Kentucky #24

    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

    EdWeek has WI above IL, but the other states way below.

    http://www.edweek.org/ew/qc/2017/2017-state-education-grades-map.html


  8. - sure - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:29 pm:

    @Nobody

    ===The per pupil spending average is driven up by the wealthy districts with strong tax base. The disparity in per pupil spending is the real story. Poor kids continue to get less.===

    You should read the report.

    “The quartile with the highest concentration of poverty in Illinois spent nearly $14,720 in 2015, according to ISBE spending data.

    “In contrast, the quartile with the lowest level of poverty spent $12,660 per student, 16 percent less than the highest-poverty districts.”

    https://files.illinoispolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Ed-Finance14-1024×826.png


  9. - Three-Finger Brown - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:33 pm:

    % residents with college degree:
    IL 32%
    IN 24%
    KY 22%
    MO 27%
    WI 28%

    Median household income:
    IL $58k
    IN $49k
    KY $44k
    MO $48k
    WI $53k

    I’m sure Somalia doesn’t spend much on K through 12, either.


  10. - winners and losers - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:37 pm:

    SB 1, written by school administrators does NOTHING to reduce administrative cost:

    •220 of the state’s 850 districts, or 26 percent, have just one school, and those districts cost 67 percent more to operate than multiple-school districts.

    •Also, districts comprised of only elementary or high schools spend about a third more on administration than unit districts that include both.

    •The state’s largest unit district, Chicago, is barely afloat but full of bloat, according to the MPC study, spending $350 per student on general administration in 2014.

    That’s below the statewide average but almost 70 percent above the national norm and nearly four times more than New York City and Los Angeles, where administrative spending is less than $100 per pupil.


  11. - Nobody - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:39 pm:

    @Sure
    Daily Herald analysis of operating costs per student at 93 suburban school districts……../
    ……..The report notes that Illinois’ average per-pupil cost in 2013 was the 15th-highest in the nation, but only two other states had wider spending gaps between the wealthiest district and the poorest district…….

    http://www.dailyherald.com/news/20170419/spending-per-student-ranges-from-8500-to-32000-in-suburbs-


  12. - wordslinger - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 12:55 pm:

    That independent, non-partisan IPI sure is down on this budget proposal that Rauner allegedly supports.

    Just like they were down on those Senate talks Rauner claimed to support. That is, until Rauner started threatening behind closed doors to primary GOP senators who played ball.

    The same bad acting is going on here. Rauner pretends to be willing to move forward, but he sends his paid-for propaganda team out to scuttle the effort.

    Bad acting, bad faith, squeeze the beast will continue on plan.


  13. - JS Mill - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 1:17 pm:

    =written by school administrators does NOTHING to reduce administrative cost:=

    It was “written” by a group representing educational interests. But, leaders took the lead as they should (maybe the governor could learn something from School leaders).

    And, given your myopia, it also did nothing to curb teacher costs. In fact, if you read the EBM- it actually increases the number of teacher we should hire. You see, I took the EBM (not SB1) and compared it’s best practice recommendations to current staffing and we would need more to meet the recommendations/targets. Including special ed.

    So why would the funding model make admin or staffing cost curbing recommendations? It wouldn’t that is not the point. It is a format for funding schools based on inputs needed to reach desired outcomes.

    SB1 has changes from the original EBM, but it is better than what we have today.

    Now we need to find funds.

    =we have serious problems with education bureaucracy here=

    Honest question from an education leader- can you explain what you are thinking here? I am interested in your perspective.


  14. - winners and losers - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 1:27 pm:

    ==But, leaders took the lead as they should…So why would the funding model make admin or staffing cost curbing recommendations? It wouldn’t that is not the point==

    Just as I said, school administrators wrote SB 1 so SB 1 does NOTHING about reducing Illinois administrative school costs because “that is not the point”.


  15. - JS Mill - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 1:45 pm:

    =Just as I said, school administrators wrote SB 1 so SB 1 does NOTHING about reducing Illinois administrative school costs because “that is not the point”.=

    You sound like someone writing a political ad, taking things out of context.

    I notice you didn’t parse the teacher cost comment either. If they did that it might hurt your pocket book.

    I have been “in the room” when the model was being created. It represents all interest groups (IEA and IFT are supporters). Something that is beyond your limited comprehension.

    Keep on with your Rauneresque spinnin’


  16. - ZC - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 1:55 pm:

    Unfortunately, it’s the Illinois Policy Institute.

    I just don’t have time anymore to dig and see what creative spin on the numbers they came up with this time.

    I’m sure there’s some truth in it, mind, but it’s like listening to conservative talk radio - I don’t have the time to parse out the half-truths (and occasional outright distortions) from the accurate stuff.


  17. - Joe M - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 2:00 pm:

    IPI’s figures for any public and/or state spending almost always include pension spending - and these education figures seem to also.
    https://www.illinoispolicy.org/reports/education-finance-solutions/

    The real question is if for the other states IPI is citing, is IPI including retirement spending for education in those states?


  18. - winners and losers - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 2:08 pm:

    JSMill says he is a school administrator. Does he attempt to justify the fact that 220 of the state’s 850 districts, or 26 percent, have just one school?

    “Incredibly, Illinois could easily meet the commission’s goal [for SB 1] without scrounging for another penny if district administrative spending was even close to the national average because that would free up at least $400 million a year for classrooms instead of offices.” BGA


  19. - JS Mill - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 2:50 pm:

    =JSMill says he is a school administrator. Does he attempt to justify the fact that 220 of the state’s 850 districts, or 26 percent, have just one school?=

    What? I guess it is 5:00pm somewhere.

    It isn’t my job to justify what other schools decide, but you may want to talk to the locally elected school boards and their community members and see if you can get some consolidation going. They are the real obstacle to consolidation. One area district has 35 students. It ain’t the Superintendent/principal/school nurse/PE teacher/Bus driver that is blocking consolidation.

    You get on that one and get back to me.

    I am responsible for one district that is just shy of 300 sq miles and 5 buildings.

    In other news the sky is blue.


  20. - JS Mill - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 2:56 pm:

    =“Incredibly, Illinois could easily meet the commission’s goal [for SB 1] without scrounging for another penny if district administrative spending was even close to the national average because that would free up at least $400 million a year for classrooms instead of offices.” BGA =

    I wonder how that mgmt data compares to private industry standards for best practice supervisor:employee ratios?

    Here we are at 1:50

    I read somewhere that private sector standards are below 1:10.

    I would love to let one of our teachers set the Levy. That would be a hoot.


  21. - wordslinger - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 3:05 pm:

    WAL, OPRF 200 is a one-school district with 3,200 students that receives less than 10% of its educational funding from the state.

    So what’s your point?


  22. - winners and losers - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 3:42 pm:

    wordslinger: The point was made by the Better Government Association
    http://www.bettergov.org/news/andy-shaw-illinois-school-district-administration-a-bureaucratic-boondoggle
    based on a study by the Metropolitan Planning Council:
    http://www.metroplanning.org/news/7412/More-efficiency-could-help-solve-school-funding-woes-in-Illinois


  23. - Anonymous - Monday, Jun 19, 17 @ 8:21 pm:

    The IPI, BGA & Paul Lisnek.


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